US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale • Hacker News Board

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#31

Post by NicoJuicy » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #7

secondo wrote: post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

American Security guarantees do not come for free. Feeling constrained? then raise an Army and a Navy worth fielding and fighting Russians with out American assistance.

Europe easily outspends Russia in military investments. 287$ billion for Europe, 70$ for Russia in 2015 ( russia vs europe military spend: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=russia+vs+europe+milit... )

So, I don't know where your opinion comes from. But I think you could be better informed ;)

Ps. I do think we should buy less US and spend more European. Eg. The F-35 is a joke currently, considering the costs.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#32

Post by tartoran » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #28

tooltalk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be some kind of smear campaign waged against Samsung by its foundry competitor TSMC at national level. Not sure about this insecurity or fake rivalry by Taiwanese tech companies who see Samsung as a major threat ( https://phys.org/news/2013-04-taiwan-tech-industry-samsung.h... ), but according to Reuters: ASML rejects Samsung's involvement in IP theft case with rival , APRIL 17, 2019, https://www.reu…

I don't think it's a smear campaign per say, Samsung stole their their way to display tech dominance. It's just recognition that these tactics are still being embraced in lagging industries in some countries. ASML has no-touch policy for Samsung employees for their scanners, they've been pretty savvy in mitigating attempts at copying their tech for the last 20 years. Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind…

https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/to-asml-china-is-just-another-...

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#33

Post by est31 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 6:54 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #30

est31 wrote: post #23

Wars will more and more be fought by remote controlled or autonomous drones. People are more ready to become soldiers if they can stay in a safe country, press some buttons, and their life won't be at stake. Wars will be less unpopular in the countries that deploy those drones. Even traditional forms of combat are increasingly supported by technology. ASML is a key component here: they build the machines needed to bu…

You don't need to fight traditional wars if you can dominate economically. Which seems to be what China has been doing so far.

Economic sanctions are a powerful instrument but they are only as powerful as much as the people involved care about their economy. ISIS doesn't care about economics, they care about beheading non-muslims and creating a medieval society. Taliban could have gotten rich from accepting mining companies into their country but instead they chose to fly attacks on the USA and ruin their reputation. North Korea's economy is a shadow of the south Korean one yet they won't give in and stop their nuclear program in exchange for economic help. Managing these people requires application of immediate force, aka military.

Regarding China, it is building a monopoly in the hardware sector. It's already impossible to avoid China if you want to build a smartphone. The more this trend continues, the more China will exert influence with its power over that sector. For a military conflict with China, which isn't unlikely in the future, this means that anyone else would be at a disadvantage.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#34

Post by joshuaissac » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

est31 wrote: post #17

secondo wrote: post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

TBH I'm glad it's not sold off. Europe has barely any large world leading companies in the digital sector. ASML is one of those world leaders. As for your american influence point, I'd certainly prefer if a strong EU council would block the sale instead of our transatlantic partners, but EU council can't even prevent OBOR in central europe...

How does preventing ASML from selling products to Chinese customers help it stay a world leader? A strong EU council would not block such sales.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#35

Post by yorwba » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

est31 wrote: post #17

secondo wrote: post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

TBH I'm glad it's not sold off. Europe has barely any large world leading companies in the digital sector. ASML is one of those world leaders. As for your american influence point, I'd certainly prefer if a strong EU council would block the sale instead of our transatlantic partners, but EU council can't even prevent OBOR in central europe...

The article is not about ASML getting sold, but about ASML selling (or rather, not selling) their product to customers in China.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#36

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #12

the-dude wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we fight the Russians?

Because Russians want to move their borders to Carpathians to secure their borders given their dwindling demographics (since you can protect will lesser numbers). this is not anything to do with Cold war -- it is natural state of survival. One thing East Europeans get and West Europeans are clueless is the Russian Expansionism. The immediate prescription of half-wits is "Cold War". I did not make the North European P…

> Because Russians want to move their borders to Carpathians

Russians will move their border as far as you allow them to. I know their mentality, for I am one, and I grew up in a town full of army and fleet people.

I saw many types like that, before I got out of the country. Those will keep bully you more and more to see where you set the line, and punch them back.

In their calculus, being punched back is not bad at all, if before that they were able to punch you "for free"

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#37

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

est31 wrote: post #26

xt00 wrote: post #14

Something tells me that ASML will be the target of China hacking them and trying to get technical info on how to build their own machine. Hate to be pessimistic but I’ll be waiting for that news story to hit in a year or so..

They are certainly at the cutting edge of semiconductor manufacturing. Given this bliss screen in a 2015 promo video and the general approach to security in the hardware sector, I doubt they are at the cutting edge of securing their own computers: https://youtu.be/ttbaaI5xUcg?t=254

Fab equipment running XP is still not as bad as few years old tools running Freedos

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#38

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #24

sremani wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Russians want to move their borders to Carpathians to secure their borders given their dwindling demographics (since you can protect will lesser numbers). this is not anything to do with Cold war -- it is natural state of survival. One thing East Europeans get and West Europeans are clueless is the Russian Expansionism. The immediate prescription of half-wits is "Cold War". I did not make the North European P…

Fun facts: - Europe destroyed the USSR without war. - Putin gets more resistance protests in Russia because of common sanctions - Gazprom can't sell with profit within Russia, they need Europe - Russia invests a lot of percentage of their GDP on military. But it's still nothing compared to Europe ( russia vs europe military spend: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=russia+vs+europe+milit... ). Remember, Europe isn…

Man... what your economic policy will do to 30k units or armour, and 50k units in reserve?

Russia is still 100% capable to just put reservists into t55s and send them in the general direction of Europe. The only two real option to stall them for Nato will be to redeploy US forces to Europe or use French nukes.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#39

Post by baybal2 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

secondo wrote: post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

I don't think that US even hides the fact that they made Wassenaar in order to keep their allies in line, and clip their wings on the techno-economic front.

For example, when US was enthusiastic selling military equipment to China, not a single US company was ever denied a license, at the same time, US made everything to deny that for its allies.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#40

Post by rb808 » Mon, Jan 06, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #31

sremani wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American Security guarantees do not come for free. Feeling constrained? then raise an Army and a Navy worth fielding and fighting Russians with out American assistance.

Europe easily outspends Russia in military investments. 287$ billion for Europe, 70$ for Russia in 2015 ( russia vs europe military spend: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=russia+vs+europe+milit... ) So, I don't know where your opinion comes from. But I think you could be better informed ;) Ps. I do think we should buy less US and spend more European. Eg. The F-35 is a joke currently, considering the costs.

I'm very sympathetic to the European view, but it was pretty disappointing to see Europeans forces do very little in Yugoslavian civil wars, Libya, Ukraine.