Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#31

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #30

pgeorgi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Energiewende will make natural gas prohibitive over time. That pipeline will be profitable, but I don't see it as a strategic factor (except for Ukraine who can't exert pressure on Russia by withholding deliveries to Western Europe). On the other hand, building such a "firewall" will also be useful if the US chooses to exert more pressure like that, for example over the EU defense fund not planning to prop up the…

> The Energiewende will make natural gas prohibitive over time. The Energiewende is laughable in its ambitions though, especially on top of wanting to implement a project like this. Germany has an issue in not being serious about tackling climate change - this is just another example of it. I'm all for the EU unifying against the US's bullying, but this is something that should've been tackled when the US was undermi…

> But suddenly this project has motivated German politicians to push for unity? Really?

The article was copied to reddit (see link somewhere else in this discussion): The ideas that were floated on twitter (of all places! this is far from official) extend on the Iran anti-embargo trade vehicle, which so far wasn't successful.

The issue with the trade vehicle is that it works better the larger its scope, so propping this up over _yet_ another example of US sanctions (this time hitting the EU more directly) also helps the Iran case.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#32

Post by Tomte » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #28

Deukhoofd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics?

> Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics? Keyword: Undermined. I feel like you're arguing in bad faith here. I don't see the US undermining anything here except a project that would've made Russia richer and further increased Germany's gas dependence, and by extension political dependence, on Russia. I'd say the project itself was undermining the EU solidarity…

> and further increased Germany's gas dependence

It doesn't, though. If Russia starts playing games (or just raises prices), Germany can immediately import American LPG, practically within weeks. There is no dependence on either Russia or America, and that's what makes America work against it. They want Germany to become dependent. On them.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#33

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #20

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Another German here. I find Putin and Russia absolutely revolting, but that last part is utter propaganda. The US has meddled in European politics for decades - just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW or Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget or us Germans not joining the fun in…

>>just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW I can not find anything current but if you are talking about his statements on the MX plant, he does that to every Manufacturer that sell items in the US but does not manufacturer them here (at least in part). Trump is a nationalist and loves protectionism, he believes that Products sold in the US should be made in the US. Thus BMW building a plant in Mexico to sell cars…

> he believes that Products sold in the US should be made in the US.

Let's ensure that software and media sold in Europe are made in Europe. (not that Trump minds: both hit California for the most part and he doesn't care about CA)

> Germany does not spend enough of their GDP on NATO, instead the US has to disproportionately fund world defense

And now that the EU is planning a defense fund (which will help on that particular front, and also improve EU's capabilities so that there's less real-or-perceived reliance on the US) the US complains again because they don't get to sell their crap overseas.

Hypocrites.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#34

Post by mattrp » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #13

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

I'm well aware of the popular notion that many US politicians are controlled by Russia, but have never heard that a similar theory exists with respect to Germany. Is this really a thing now, or are you referring to a far more limited scenario?

It actually existed before the US scandal. Gerhard Schroeder promotes the nordstream deal as chancellor, signed an agreement between nordstream and Germany, then upon leaving office signed onto Nordstream’s board of governors. If that isn’t the revolving door I don’t know what is.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#35

Post by theredbox » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

We need the US to step in for Eastern Europe. We need a reliable partner that is at least very direct and honest about its interests unlike Germany that is all about german interests while preaching european unity and values. Seriously Germany has been destroying my part of Europe for way too long! No more!

I would rather deal with the american way of life than being forced to live the german way.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#36

Post by praptak » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #15

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. This is about Nordstream 2 I guess. Given how natural gas comes from Russia right now (via Ukraine and Poland), how does this increaase reliance on Russia? It certainly decreases the reliance on Poland (not much of a concern in Germany) and Ukraine (lots of trouble…

Decreasing reliance on Poland (and on Ukraine to a degree) is a concern in Poland though. This combined with our (Polish) politicians being idiotically pro-US makes Poland likely to oppose Merkel on this issue.

Which is sad, but you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#37

Post by chestermacwerth » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

It turns out that Germany has been adversarial toward the US throughout its history. This"German call for European unity against the US" is almost identical to their opposition in the Spanish-American War.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#38

Post by rbinv » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Another German here. I find Putin and Russia absolutely revolting, but that last part is utter propaganda. The US has meddled in European politics for decades - just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW or Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget or us Germans not joining the fun in…

Another German here, and I agree. It's beyond naive to assume that there's no serious US interference in European politics (Trump or not).

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#39

Post by rbinv » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

pointillistic wrote: post #10

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

One would think that with it's communist history Germany would be on the side of the Western Values. In addition Globalism hollowed out the western know-how,via cut and paste to China. Germany stands to lose from it the most with precision manufacturing being transferred to China. Markel is picking the wrong friends.

I assume you're referring to the KPD and maybe the DDR (GDR), but overall, Germany has been anything but communist.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#40

Post by richliss » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

The disrespect that Germany is showing the US is mind boggling. The US being part of NATO is the greatest deal the other countries have ever signed/received. The US spends nearly $700 Billion per year compared to Germany’s nearly $56 Billion per year on its military.

The US needs to start sending ultimatums - you are either part of NATO and therefore don’t enrich Russia by buying their resources and pay your fair share (2%) at the very least or we’re going to pull out of NATO and have a treaty with just Estonia, Greece, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Britain who all meet the treaty conditions of 2% and don’t whine.

If NATO ended and Germany had to build up and army capable of defending itself against Russia it would cost way more than 2% per year.

All Europeans need to understand the financial burden US tax payers meet to keep us safe. I think the Brits realise how important it is and the Poles and the Baltic’s do because they know what it’s like to live under Russian military fear.