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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

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Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.

"Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.

I'm only guessing, but my definition of working hard would be:

- Staying focused on the task and cut unnecessary distractions

- Make yourself accountable and deliver what you set out to deliver

- Hold yourself to the same standards as you expect everyone else

- Be true to yourself, your beliefs and always ensure that you lead in such a way that reflects and demonstrates those values to the rest of the company

- Be smart about time management, use "uncreative" hours to get other work done

- Don't indefinitely postpone less exciting work if it is important and make it a priority to get done

- Be on time, if you schedule meetings with other people don't let them wait and value their time as much as you value your own time

- Surround yourself with other smart people and keep an open mind to ideas which differ to your own

- Control your emotions and don't make wrong choices in the moment of heat, stress or fear

- etc.

It would be really easy (especially as a founder) to not do many of these things and it takes real dedication and effort to lead by good example. I'd call that hard work.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.

What does “not working hard” look like? It looks like Facebook, Reddit, news.yc, YouTube, online shopping, Candy Crush, chatting with co-workers, and dicking off in the break/game room. “Working hard” looks a lot like “not not working hard”.

Dick off as in masturbation at work? Sorry, English is not my first nor second language.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#33

"I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not" So he didn't. What about his employees? Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while the…

> Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. That's definitely true of the Bay Area, but Shopify is an Ottawa, Canada company. Having gone to college there, I don't get the feeling that Tobi is doing anything out of the ordinary for an Ottawa company. That may not be the case in Kitchener/Waterloo or Vancouver -- and it's definitely not true of the Bay Area -- but…

For those who are not familiar, Ottawa is Canada's capital and its labour market is dominated by government jobs. It's a very 9 to 5 (actually, more like 9 to 4:30) culture and anything else would be a shock to the system for most people.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#34
post #28

I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work". I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work. 4 to 6 creative hours seems righ…

I think some of the people who are making claims of really long hours are using amphetamines or other performance enhancing drugs.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#35
Jason Fried was talking about this a few days ago:

https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1209115637148274690

I wholeheartedly agree as well. The key to working less, while being successful is to focus on what will give you the best rate of return and not doing the things that are not useful. That is really hard to figure out initially though. But I think it gets easier as you get more experienced, as your personal value system gets better tweaked to match reality.

This applies to the company as well like Jason Fried said. The company should have clear values that are attuned to market value and it should be professionally run.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#36
I find if you have a exciting project and you've developed a great team (which includes soft-skills; great technical skills does not necessarily make a great employee), I find a lot of team members voluntarily thinking about the project outside of hours or staying late because they want to.

Whilst more hours certainly doesn't mean more productivity, the idea of nurturing intrinsic motivation is often omitted in discussions about working late and it's more an implicit by-product of a good working environment.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#37
Me thinks there's a bit of selection bias here.

If you're fortunate enough to hit product market fit without too much struggle ... and then can scale it as a regular company - good on you.

But I suggest in the early years, it's really not like that for most founders as they pivot and strife.

In the scale years, I suggest it probably could be more like that for most company employees and leadership. And FYI I think most companies are like this i.e. more or less 9-to-5, even very well known corps.

I also think this might have very much to do with the nature of the technology and the inherent competitiveness/barriers in the category: in companies wherein there's a significant number of talented individuals needed to focus - crunching happens.

For example: Pixar films. Apparently people work pretty long and hard to make production work. It involves a lot of specific talent, working together with ambiguous timelines and schedules, last minute creative changes.

Spotify seems to be the kind of company perhaps wherein the work can be spread out fairly efficiently thereby enabling not only 9-5 hours, but perhaps more importantly: no need for A+ Valley Top Talent. I know Ottawa very well and there isn't remotely enough raw, high end A+ talent and specialisation of skills to make something like the iPhone.

Spotify can be built with a large number of 'smart people' (which Ottawa has aplenty), but I'm doubtful there will ever be an iPhone or 'Toy Story' come out of Ottawa either (though I would desperately like to be wrong).

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#38
Long hours aren't necessary for success, and you should do what works for you, but they’re needed if you're aiming for the top in your field.

It's an inconvenient truth, but you're not going to be able to reach the John Carmacks of the world if you're working 40 and they're working 60: https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296

Anyone who thinks he would've achieved the same with far fewer hours are just kidding themselves and pulling crabs down into the bucket. Also implicit in that is Carmack being a fool for working 60, when he would've been as or more(!) effective with less? Nonsense.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#39
post #26

What's unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, "rockstar CEOs" like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity/image reasons and not that it's actually true, but you've got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.

There is anecdotal information that he does indeed do what he claims. And he is the most impressive CEO in this generation, perhaps in history, so long hours must work for some people.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#40
post #38

Long hours aren't necessary for success, and you should do what works for you, but they’re needed if you're aiming for the top in your field. It's an inconvenient truth, but you're not going to be able to reach the John Carmacks of the world if you're working 40 and they're working 60: https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296 Anyone who thinks he would've achieved the same with far fewer hours are…

Founding and being the CEO of Shopify, a $48bn company and one of the best-performing stocks of the last few years, isn't "the top"?

Different people have different styles that work for them. Some people love to work 60+ hours and are productive doing it, others get more and better work done when they limit themselves to 40 and take time off. What works for you/Tobi/John doesn't universally work for others.

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