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Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

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31–40 of 115 posts

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brain-hand response is not the same thing as a perceived delay. Once latency becomes greater than 50ms, it becomes human noticeable -- aka "not instant." Given that UI response isn't used to trigger human reflexes, you are just misunderstanding the intent.

From my first hand experience in FPS gaming in non-amateur settings the vast majority of average users will not be able to notice a (say) 50 ms difference in UI responsiveness. I covered that when talking about network latency in my previous post. Of course this is just my experience, scientific findings may very well dispute my ignorance.

Correction, the vast majority of users will not be able to explain that they feel a responsiveness issue, but they do indeed feel it. Less hardcore gamers will often just blame other things -- loose controls, or ignored button presses, or what not.

I see it pretty regularly in playtests and such. Anyway, it's not something someone can simply say "Hey, this app took longer than 50ms to respond!" It's more of a gut feeling that something about it is slow.

They are likely aiming at the 50ms threshold because that's the point at which you really can't notice it, most of the time. At > 50ms, it becomes more and more noticeable, and by just 100ms people actively start complaining about the slowness of response.

edit:

As for the FPS gaming issue, the reality is that you don't notice it in FPS gaming because the games are built to hide it from you -- when you press your fire button, your gun fires, regardless of net latency. And that has been true for a very long time. I think the last game to really wait for server response before doing anything was Quake 3, and probably some of the Quake 3 engine games.

I could never stand Quake 3 for that reason, if you had anything higher than 30-40ms it started feeling like you weren't controlling the game.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#32
post #24

Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…

Chrome auto-updates and generally always looks the same. I can't imagine why anyone -- users or developers -- would care what version number it's up to.

My theory is that they wanted to avoid PHB types saying 'Internet Explorer is at version 9 - this new Google browser, only version 3? Is it ready for the enterprise?'.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that the Chromium authors are concerned about trying to catch IE by having a larger version number. Their development calendar ( https://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/calen... ) looks as though they have a rigid two-month schedule per version number. I myself am already running version 11 (screenshot: http://jhn.me/4RYO ) via their nightly builds.

But why have they chosen to version their software like this, in contrast to every other browser? They could have gone with even numbered point releases.

As per the last paragraph of this post: http://blog.chromium.org/2010/07/release-early-release-often...

"Please don’t read too much into the pace of version number changes - they just mean we are moving through release cycles and we are geared up to get fresher releases into your hands!"

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#35
post #11

"the main focus of Firefox development in 2011, is to make sure there is no more than 50ms between any user interaction and feedback from the browser" Quite surprised to see this, judging from the fact that empirically the average human brain-hand response is around 200 ms. Only in competitive CS have i seen network latency in a non-LAN setting makes a difference in that scenario, but only when you are not on the ver…

Brain-hand response isn't what it's about here: it's about synchronicity, the notion that clicking the mouse and effects on screen occurring at the same time. It's quite easy to see (and hear) relatively small differences between two events that are supposed to happen simultaneously.

For example, of my two monitors, one is lagged by one frame. I can see this easily by taking a white window against a black desktop, moving it so that it straddles both monitors, and moving it rapidly up and down: the monitor that's a frame slower makes the window look a bit like it's made of rubber, that it's bent away from the direction of motion. And that's just a 17ms difference in two events that are supposed to be simultaneous, an order of magnitude less than your factoid of 200ms.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#36

Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…

I agree. It suggests that version numbers are essentially meaningless when the consumer of the versioned item is only concerned with what is supported.

It almost seems reasonable to think any browser level 7 should have full HTML5 compatibility. Level 8 should have IndexDB as the built-in database.

I haven't spent a lot of time considering this idea, but I'm attracted to the stability that could be gained from having versions somewhat mapped to implementation standards.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#38
post #10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You're kidding, right? Nope, they're just misinformed; they read the roadmap incorrectly. What the Firefox devs mean is a 64-bit version of Firefox (i.e. an x64 process). Right now Firefox runs perfectly on both Windows 7 and 64-bit versions of Windows.

There are 32-bit and 64-bit builds of Firefox. The 64-bit builds only work on 64-bit machines -- and the 32-bit builds work on both 32- and 64-bit machines.

64-bit build for Windows?

Can you please provide a link to that, I'd like to test/use it.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#39

Does it seem like Mozilla is lowering the bar as to what will constitute an integer release (4.0, 5.0, etc.)? It was July 2008 when FireFox 3.0 came out, 19 months later, 4.0 hasn't come out yet.

No, it seems like they want to ship major releases more often and don't want to think hard about what version increment the new release's features merit.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#40
post #10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You're kidding, right? Nope, they're just misinformed; they read the roadmap incorrectly. What the Firefox devs mean is a 64-bit version of Firefox (i.e. an x64 process). Right now Firefox runs perfectly on both Windows 7 and 64-bit versions of Windows.

There are 32-bit and 64-bit builds of Firefox. The 64-bit builds only work on 64-bit machines -- and the 32-bit builds work on both 32- and 64-bit machines.

If anyone’s interested, there are 64bit Windows builds at the bottom of https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/late...

The usual proviso apply of course: these are nightly builds and come with no guarentees, nor should they be used as an indication of the quality of the release going forwards.

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