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When will the Netherlands disappear?

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Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#31

Post by ragebol »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #24
simplemts wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of an American living in the Netherlands for several years now... The Dutch are light years ahead in their Water management from the US, and far ahead of any other developed nation. The Dutch have a separate tax for Water to ensure money is there to prioritize this need, the citizens/children are all educated on the importance of water management (i.e. Indoctrination from young so EVERY citizen k…

> The Dutch have a separate tax for Water to ensure money is there to prioritize this need Also, the local government bodies that runs this (the 'waterschappen') form one of the oldest democratic systems in the world. > In short, they will be fine. This is a core part of their culture, investment, and priority. It's also one of the things there isn't ever any real political discussion about, it just never comes up. N…

Every time there is elections for the waterboard ("Waterschap"), there is a very low turnout and talks to just merge them into the provincial governments. But I guess we'll only know what we miss once it's gone.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#32

Post by rasvj »

blunte wrote: post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

One or two generations of farming? By then they'll be retired (with a pension) or dead, do you think they care?

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#33

Post by mosselman »

the-dude wrote: post #26
blunte wrote: post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

This is a very one-sided view of the nitrogen problem. It would be fair to point out the allowed nitrogen levels are orders of a magnitude smaller than in for example Germany, which is the result of a political decision to assign many many Natura2000 areas. edit: and to add to this, there is plenty of support for the farmers, and their activism in The Netherlands.

So because some people are shitting in their kitchen, it isn't a bad idea to do so as well?

On a more serious note though, much of the agriculture in the Netherlands is the production of meat, especially pork, for export. This is by far the biggest source of pollution. I'd rather live with less animal farmers and more Natura2000 areas than the other way around.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#34

Post by joelbluminator »

the-dude wrote: post #14

A couple of months ago, one of the guys running our watermanagement ( https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/ ) claimed The Netherlands would sustain 'multiple meters of sea level rise'.

And several meters rise won't happen in the next 50 years, probably not next 100 years. I'm not saying this issue isn't real but those panic and fear inducing titles aren't helping at all. These kind of titles either further convince the deniers once those doom prophecies fail to materialise, or cause further panic to those who do believe. We should be much more worried about the poor people in India or Bangladesh or even Florida than we are about the Netherlands.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#36

Post by adventskalender »

nkrisc wrote: post #30
adventskalender wrote: post #3

Am I the only one who gets angry at stupid "mood setting" in such articles? It leads with the picture of an abandoned settlement that has turned to marshland, only to reveal that it was deliberately given over to the sea. Why should I read on after they wasted my time with that imagery? As for Netherlands being flooded, I suppose that threat has existed since the early day of its existence.

Perhaps because we can't yet take pictures of the future, fitting analogues from the present might be used to depict the possible future conditions described in the article?

It's still a waste of my time as a reader, and appealing to emotions, not to rational thought.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#37

Post by jacquesm »

It won't. NL has been preparing quite hard for a rise in sea level and/or worse storms. The port of IJmuiden is being overhauled, the shoreline defenses have all been raised, in some places only about 3 ft, in others much more depending on the likelihood of flooding. A bigger problem is that during an extended period of high water that the rivers won't be able to drain into the North Sea and studies are being made on how to deal with that, the 'room for the river' ("ruimte voor de rivier") plan is one of many ways in which change can be made. Other options are to use the IJsselmeer as buffer storage and to vastly increase pumping capacity.

https://www.ruimtevoorderivier.nl/

https://www.gemalen.nl/gemaal_detail.asp?gem_id=264

(Photo 4 is particularly interesting, that's one of three such pumps, and this is an old one and now relatively small, it is one of many such pumps)

The alarmist tone of the article is a bit strange, if there is a place where I feel safe with respect to water it is here, there is an extensive network of canals, pumps, monitoring and reserve capacity on just about everything to deal with water and flooding. Compared to how other countries fare (annual news from France, Germany, Spain and elsewhere shows extensive damage) we do pretty good here.

Of course on large time scales there is a real risk and it will cost a small fortune to deal with all that but with dikes as a well understood mechanism to keep the see out and one of the wealthiest nations on a per area basis it would highly surprise me if NL were the worst hit.

Consider another angle: if the problem had not been dealt with successfully in the past this country would not even exist today.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#38

Post by blunte »

the-dude wrote: post #26
blunte wrote: post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

This is a very one-sided view of the nitrogen problem. It would be fair to point out the allowed nitrogen levels are orders of a magnitude smaller than in for example Germany, which is the result of a political decision to assign many many Natura2000 areas. edit: and to add to this, there is plenty of support for the farmers, and their activism in The Netherlands.

It looks to me like Germany has a significant amount of Natura 2000 sites, rather in proportion to NL in terms of land size. However, Germany has triple the percentage of forest compare to NL. Germany also has a lot of manufacturing that NL doesn't have. Both use about 50% of their land for agriculture.

From what I can gather, Dutch farming is higher output - production wise as well as emissions wise.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#39

Post by teekert »

mosselman wrote: post #33
the-dude wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very one-sided view of the nitrogen problem. It would be fair to point out the allowed nitrogen levels are orders of a magnitude smaller than in for example Germany, which is the result of a political decision to assign many many Natura2000 areas. edit: and to add to this, there is plenty of support for the farmers, and their activism in The Netherlands.

So because some people are shitting in their kitchen, it isn't a bad idea to do so as well? On a more serious note though, much of the agriculture in the Netherlands is the production of meat, especially pork, for export. This is by far the biggest source of pollution. I'd rather live with less animal farmers and more Natura2000 areas than the other way around.

Well, if us Dutch people stop shitting in our kitchen, we import food from other countries shitting in their kitchen, plus we now have extra fuel to burn to get the food here.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#40

Post by adventskalender »

mannykannot wrote: post #29
adventskalender wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should say so in the article. All it says is "The Noordwaard polder was one of 39 such areas selected for the Dutch government’s “Room for the River” program, in which land was given back to the water." Shame on the Dutch government for the euphemism, too, I guess. Afaik it is nothing new that the sea claims land that was previously settled on. The destruction of Rungholt in the 14th century is a famous exa…

The point is that it is an example of an issue that is going to become much more pressing. Considering a 14th. century event without regard to what has changed since then (technically, economically and environmentally) is not very informative.

Why not? If such things have happened before, it seems dishonest to use such imagery to conjure a scenario of doom.

Maybe the risk is now higher, more frequent, different, whatever. Fine, then tell me so, show me the numbers.

I don't want to be manipulated with emotional imagery. I want to be informed. I don't read the news for entertainment. I mean yeah I do, but I actually want to read it for information.

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