Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#31

Post by datashow » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

What if someone learned something on their own time, do they get to be reimbursed from the employer?

Or, can I ask my employer to reimburse my under-graduate and graduate tuition?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#32

Post by rifung » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #25

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

> I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time.

Some people are more passionate about their jobs than others no matter the discipline.

I love my job but it's still just something I do to fund my actual dreams/passion. Why would I spend more time on it than I need to when I already feel like I don't have enough time for my own interests?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#33

Post by darkwater » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #25

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

Well, not doing it on your own time is the exact point of the article linked. I mean, if you want to pivot into a completely different career in a completely different company you should do it on your own, sure, but GP wants to change position within the same company, and wants to move in an understaffed department. Why should they do it on their time and dime?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#34

Post by jamil7 » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

jpincheira wrote: post #18

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

Bad. Went I went from JS front end to iOS, I was put in a learning period on my own + internship in the iOS team and that worked great. It’s how companies like Spotify also did it. They paid companies like the Big Nerd Ranch to travel to Stockholm and give workshops to future iOS devs. They benefited and I also did, as it helped me evolve into a full-stack (web, mobile & server) developer. This was essential for me t…

How did it work out for you? I'm also trying to do the same.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#35

Post by whatshisface » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #25

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

Isn't capital expenditure usually the company's responsibility? If you wanted to have nothing but opex you would rent all of your equipment and hire contractors - but that would get expensive quick.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#36

Post by pferde » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

cushychicken wrote: post #22

ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

>I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things Does this apply to skills that might be more applicable to another team? My current manager encourages learning, but shoos me away from topics that are handled by other managers. Frustratingly, he's blocked transitions of mine to other teams with work that I've found interesting and educa…

You can't, and you shouldn't. Your "resources" (what a derogatory way to refer to people, by the way) will be more valuable, more competent, if they know more than just that what's needed for your team's direct focus.

Being able to place your own work in broader context is very powerful.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#37

Post by eyko » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

jpincheira wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad. Went I went from JS front end to iOS, I was put in a learning period on my own + internship in the iOS team and that worked great. It’s how companies like Spotify also did it. They paid companies like the Big Nerd Ranch to travel to Stockholm and give workshops to future iOS devs. They benefited and I also did, as it helped me evolve into a full-stack (web, mobile & server) developer. This was essential for me t…

We have a formal mentorship program and employees get 4 hours a month for professional development. We still feel we fail them.

We do 4 hours a week, and I still feel it's too little.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#38

Post by piva00 » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #25

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

There is a difference between:

  1. learning outside of work for your own personal enjoyment;
  2. learning for professional growth and;
  3. for professional needs.

Category 1 is where learning for free, at anytime is valuable, you are doing it as a hobby or as a personal curiosity, so taking your own time for that is fun and enjoyable.

Category 2 is murky, I've definitely done a lot of studying on my own dime to improve myself or learn technologies I could apply on my day-to-day work but... When I could I did it on company's time, on this category I'm using my time for something that will have a direct return to the company, if I can get paid for it I'd always choose so.

Category 3 SHOULD NEVER be done on your own time.

This mentality of needing to use your own time to do any kind of professional development only fosters the race to the bottom, where you are required to use your own time to improve yourself because the company you work for is only interested in extracting maximum value out of your billable hours...

I agree that in the parent's comment case they could have used some of their free time to improve their backend skills and then try a lateral move in their job but it shouldn't make you "amazed" that someone isn't willing to sacrifice their free time to earn a little bit more of salary while their company extracts a higher multiple out of that same work.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#39

Post by rifung » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

> So what can I do as a manager to make it more “okay” to spend time at work learning?

Maybe instead of having them read something, make them give a presentation on it to the rest of the team?

Then they have deadlines and produce content. Sounds just like work to me.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#40

Post by jsjw7sbw » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

jpincheira wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad. Went I went from JS front end to iOS, I was put in a learning period on my own + internship in the iOS team and that worked great. It’s how companies like Spotify also did it. They paid companies like the Big Nerd Ranch to travel to Stockholm and give workshops to future iOS devs. They benefited and I also did, as it helped me evolve into a full-stack (web, mobile & server) developer. This was essential for me t…

We have a formal mentorship program and employees get 4 hours a month for professional development. We still feel we fail them.

Make that 4 hours a week and maybe you'll feel better.