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Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#31

Post by loh »

bluGill wrote: post #15
madprops wrote: post #2

Or maybe give people time to live before they decide to participate in "the economy". Not everything is jobs. Actually I would argue that hiring is, or should be soon, obsolete because of a gradual change on mindset that clarifies what jobs really are, schemes. There's no reason to dedicate most of your waking life working on selling products where the end product is just maintaining frivolous life styles. And if hav…

How does the labor to build the basic things like a roof happen? How does the labor to grow food and get it to you happen? Those are called jobs, and like it or not somebody has to do them. Society has been getting more efficient at them, but even still some amount of human labor is required! People have jobs because they need things that can only be got via human labor. This is not a bigger issue at a root level, it…

If you think hundreds or thousands (or maybe even decades) into the future, it's pretty clear that it should be entirely possible to fully automate everything required for basic human needs. Obviously there will be some human labor required to build it, and probably some discouraging speed bumps along the way, but just because it does not exist in our present time doesn't mean it's impossible.

I dream of a future where everyone has all of their basic needs met through technology, giving people the capacity to focus on doing the things they are naturally good at doing, things they enjoy, all on their on free time with their own free will. If you think about it, technology is nothing more than the rearrangement of resources to create tools which make our lives easier. Progression of technology is just a matter of how much better we get at creating these tools, and we are getting better and better and we will never stop. We will eventually have tools that make it effortless to satisfy all basic human needs. Automation is inevitable.

You are right that people will always have jobs, but the jobs that people have will also always change.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#32

Post by shantly »

tomgp wrote: post #16
username90 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wasn't expecting Paul Graham to recite orthodox Marxism. This paragraph is only missing the word "exploited", because he's effectively saying that young good workers are undervalued because a large employer makes more money from them than they are paid. No, the point was that at a big company you get paid the average value of the work your and your peers does, while when you work for yourself you get paid the val…

"the average value of the work you and your peers do"... minus whtever the bosses feel they can cream off the top.

Yeah you get paid the average cost of having that work done, not the average value at all. That may well be 10x what you're paid for the work, in some positions.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#33

Post by BurningFrog »

madprops wrote: post #2

Or maybe give people time to live before they decide to participate in "the economy". Not everything is jobs. Actually I would argue that hiring is, or should be soon, obsolete because of a gradual change on mindset that clarifies what jobs really are, schemes. There's no reason to dedicate most of your waking life working on selling products where the end product is just maintaining frivolous life styles. And if hav…

To me, working is just the way you participate in society and civilization.

All the fantastic gifts and riches in a modern economy you enjoy were made by Someone. You need to participate in and support the system by also making things for others.

> Not everything is jobs

Of course not. But it's something, and it's important!

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#34

Post by beckingz »

keiferski wrote: post #28
bluGill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the labor to build the basic things like a roof happen? How does the labor to grow food and get it to you happen? Those are called jobs, and like it or not somebody has to do them. Society has been getting more efficient at them, but even still some amount of human labor is required! People have jobs because they need things that can only be got via human labor. This is not a bigger issue at a root level, it…

The overwhelming majority of jobs in the modern economy have nothing to do with basic needs. Most of them simply exist to feed the consumerist/financial complex.

Do not overly disregard material conditions.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#35

Post by jandrese »

bluejekyll wrote: post #30
jillesvangurp wrote: post #27

I would say hiring is dead for a different reason: permanent employment is becoming a meaningless deal in many places. Especially in the US, you can be out on the street in 15 minutes with little or no protection against that. It's a very one sided deal where you shovel shit in exchange for a lower income. So, people treat their employers as customers and have less reservations about firing their customer. The averag…

> (I lack a good source) dropped below a year. I suspect this is not true for tech jobs. It can take 6 months for engineers to become productive members of teams, especially ones with large software codebases. On top of that, almost all cliffs are set at a year for compensation packages, so I doubt people would ditch before getting that.

This is one of those cases where taking the mean distorts your view of the market, because there are some outliers who switch jobs like they change pants who drive up the numbers for everyone. A median look at how often people switch would probably be more illustrative.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#36

Post by theflyinghorse »

madprops wrote: post #2

Or maybe give people time to live before they decide to participate in "the economy". Not everything is jobs. Actually I would argue that hiring is, or should be soon, obsolete because of a gradual change on mindset that clarifies what jobs really are, schemes. There's no reason to dedicate most of your waking life working on selling products where the end product is just maintaining frivolous life styles. And if hav…

> And if having to pay for basic things like a roof and food is the factor here, then there are bigger issues at the root level.

It is the main factor for the vast majority of people. Anectada: I cannot nor could ever afford to 'live before participating in economy' - I needed place to stay, food to eat and some extra money to not feel like a bum. It takes wealth to enjoy life.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#37

Post by dgellow »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #27

I would say hiring is dead for a different reason: permanent employment is becoming a meaningless deal in many places. Especially in the US, you can be out on the street in 15 minutes with little or no protection against that. It's a very one sided deal where you shovel shit in exchange for a lower income. So, people treat their employers as customers and have less reservations about firing their customer. The averag…

> permanent employment is becoming a meaningless deal in many places. Especially in the US, you can be out on the street in 15 minutes with little or no protection against that.

What are those “many places”, other than the US? I don’t know anywhere in Europe where that’s the case.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#38

Post by jmastrangelo »

theflyinghorse wrote: post #36
madprops wrote: post #2

Or maybe give people time to live before they decide to participate in "the economy". Not everything is jobs. Actually I would argue that hiring is, or should be soon, obsolete because of a gradual change on mindset that clarifies what jobs really are, schemes. There's no reason to dedicate most of your waking life working on selling products where the end product is just maintaining frivolous life styles. And if hav…

> And if having to pay for basic things like a roof and food is the factor here, then there are bigger issues at the root level. It is the main factor for the vast majority of people. Anectada: I cannot nor could ever afford to 'live before participating in economy' - I needed place to stay, food to eat and some extra money to not feel like a bum. It takes wealth to enjoy life.

Don't understand why you're being downvoted. Surviving and thriving in the world requires lots of material goods. These goods are produced by the economy so of course you have to participate in it in order to live. A world where people don't have to participate in the economy would have no goods.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#39

Post by UserIsUnused »

keiferski wrote: post #28
bluGill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the labor to build the basic things like a roof happen? How does the labor to grow food and get it to you happen? Those are called jobs, and like it or not somebody has to do them. Society has been getting more efficient at them, but even still some amount of human labor is required! People have jobs because they need things that can only be got via human labor. This is not a bigger issue at a root level, it…

The overwhelming majority of jobs in the modern economy have nothing to do with basic needs. Most of them simply exist to feed the consumerist/financial complex.

That's a different issue. But consumerism is needed to provide something of value back to those that gave their time to get you food and a roof.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#40

Post by bluGill »

keiferski wrote: post #28
bluGill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the labor to build the basic things like a roof happen? How does the labor to grow food and get it to you happen? Those are called jobs, and like it or not somebody has to do them. Society has been getting more efficient at them, but even still some amount of human labor is required! People have jobs because they need things that can only be got via human labor. This is not a bigger issue at a root level, it…

The overwhelming majority of jobs in the modern economy have nothing to do with basic needs. Most of them simply exist to feed the consumerist/financial complex.

The overwhelming majority of people want more than the basics. They don't just want a roof over their head, they want a nice roof - one they can stand up under, maybe with a kitchen, running water, separate rooms for their various games... They don't want to eat just rice and beans, they want more.

You are one of them: if you were not you wouldn't be reading this forum.

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