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Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#31

Post by thawaway1837 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #8
chrisbennet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite Joel article is: "Whaddaya Mean, You Can’t Find Programmers?" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-... "Now, let’s review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That’s a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when some…

The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.

In addition, salaries in software engineering have been rising faster than pretty much any other field. Further indicating that there is a shortage relative to other fields.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#32

Post by wglb »

spydum wrote: post #30
wglb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was successful in doing this. But I started out by finding software engineers that were interested in security and were willing to learn and turned them into higher-paid security folks.

absolutely this. most solid security people were devs with an interest who were given the opportunity to flip. the problem is employers want to pay below market prices, for someone who already has all of the skills they want. that just doesn't happen: those people command a lot more money. your approach is MUCH more practical (hire or transfer good interested devs internally, and train them up).

The hard part was working with HR to make the new salaries higher. Not a small task.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#33

Post by Nursie »

spratzt wrote: post #22
Nursie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" No, there's a shortage of software people who are firstly willing to work for the £30K you seem to think is reasonable and secondly (implied by the pay on offer) willing to put up with being treated as if they are a junior, unskilled office worker. Which is why those with any ambition bec…

When I graduated it was said that if your were good enough to get a decent degree then you were wasting yourself in IT. It was true then and it remains true to-day.

IT? Sure. IT is the guys that support the office printer and your outlook login. Useful people but it's hardly rocket science.

Software development contracting and consultancy is a very different matter and can easily get you into the top one or two percent of incomes in the UK.

The fact that a lot of small and medium businesses in the UK attempt to treat (and pay) the one as the other is part of the reason they're always bleating about not being able to find staff.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#34

Post by fit2rule »

detaro wrote: post #28
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Hey Joel - check out the MagicShifter - it does everything you want to do, plus more .. like MIDI! Paint your own POV pics! http://magicshifter.net/ sources: https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 You can solder a long strip of LED's (we had up to 500) and address the whole thing over a handy Wifi interface .. the MS3000 provides its own web-based programming/config interface too. We added an Arpeggiator, and MIDI to…

FWIW, for the non-POV use cases your website and repos don't seem to answer much in the way of questions. How does one program patterns for such cases? Does the Web UI help at all with that (if not, there's other projects that handle that way better)? … Quite possible it's a good choice, but the docs I found wouldn't tell me so.

The Web UI can be used to program all sorts of patterns .. plus, the code which produces existing patt can be easily extended for whatever use-case Joel needs.. there are multiple 'modes' onboard, and lots of different patterns and LED effects to use.

Also, the MagicShifter can support thousands of LED's .. we even left the pads open on the PCB so you can easily solder your own strips on...

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#35

Post by fit2rule »

mason55 wrote: post #27
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Hey Joel - check out the MagicShifter - it does everything you want to do, plus more .. like MIDI! Paint your own POV pics! http://magicshifter.net/ sources: https://github.com/magicshifter/MS3000 You can solder a long strip of LED's (we had up to 500) and address the whole thing over a handy Wifi interface .. the MS3000 provides its own web-based programming/config interface too. We added an Arpeggiator, and MIDI to…

I don't think Joel is trying to do anything with POV. The antenna is stationary, it's just covered in a ton of LEDs. Plus, he's talking about 10x the number of LEDs that you mentioned. FastLED + the OctoWS or YvesBazin's controllers make much more sense for his project.

We can support the same amount of LED's .. we even left the pads open so that you can easily solder your own strips on.

Plus, we support tons of different stationary modes. The POV stuff is fun for the pocket MagicShifter user...

Anyway, just wanted to let folks know this project is out there, and Joel is re-covering territory we've already well and truly explored. Plus, check out the new stuff on http://hackerspaceshop.com/

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#36

Post by ken »

wildmusings wrote: post #29
monksy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money isn't always the reason. In Chicago there are dev companies that are so toxic or imploding that they're well known.

Most people would work in a toxic company for the right price. For an extremely awful job it might be very high, but just about everyone has a number.

The bad companies, though, don't tend to offer more money than average. IME, they offer less. When a company is deaf to what developers care about in one department, they're usually deaf to what developers want in other departments, too.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#37

Post by ken »

thawaway1837 wrote: post #31
toasterlovin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.

In addition, salaries in software engineering have been rising faster than pretty much any other field. Further indicating that there is a shortage relative to other fields.

Or that people who aren't programmers don't actually consider the working conditions to be all that great.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#38

Post by ken »

toasterlovin wrote: post #8
chrisbennet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite Joel article is: "Whaddaya Mean, You Can’t Find Programmers?" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-... "Now, let’s review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That’s a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when some…

The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.

> The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work.

In some cases, of course, that's because there's a professional association (like the AMA) that limits the number of new workers in that field.

> Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people.

Pay is excellent, as you say.

Working conditions ... may or may not be good, depending on your perspective. Half the people I meet don't want to sit in an office all day. Many others refuse to work at Amazon (or even buy from them) or some of the other big companies because of their reputation and what they're doing to the city. "Brogramming" still exists. I know many programmers who get asked to work late without penalty to the company.

> That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.

I know plenty of ex-programmers and people who would make great programmers if they only wanted to. From my perspective, I'd say the talent exists, and the money is incredible -- therefore the working conditions must be pretty severely lacking.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#39

Post by theriddlr »

Nursie wrote: post #20
chrisbennet wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite Joel article is: "Whaddaya Mean, You Can’t Find Programmers?" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/15/whaddaya-mean-you-... "Now, let’s review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That’s a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when some…

Yup, this is a massive trope in the UK. "We need to import more people from wherever, there's a real shortage of software people!" No, there's a shortage of software people who are firstly willing to work for the £30K you seem to think is reasonable and secondly (implied by the pay on offer) willing to put up with being treated as if they are a junior, unskilled office worker. Which is why those with any ambition bec…

Only internationals graduating from UK universities qualify for a work visa with a £30k job. There is a real shortage of software engineers. The minimum pay for a non-EU software engineer coming into the UK was as high as £50k last year in April. It's only got lowered to £30k last month because of Brexit.

It's the EU workers who are willing to work for £30k because non-EUs need to earn more than £35k after 5 years to apply for settlement in the UK.

Re: Joel Spolsky is (semi-)retired

#40

Post by toasterlovin »

ken wrote: post #38
toasterlovin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing improvement for most people. That the profession hasn’t been flooded with talent is a strong indicator that there isn’t enough talent out there.

> The fact that different professions earn different amounts of money is, in fact, an indicator that the higher paying professions have a shortage of people able to perform the work. In some cases, of course, that's because there's a professional association (like the AMA) that limits the number of new workers in that field. > Working conditions and pay for programmers are incredible and would be a life changing impr…

You're limiting your perspective to white collar workers who could be programmers if they so chose. Do you think that people making $12/hour working in food service or retail wouldn't gladly become programmers if they were able to?
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