How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games • Hacker News Board

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#31

Post by rando14775 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #26

jdlyga wrote: post #9

I just finished a run of Link to the Past / Super Metroid crossover randomizer. And it's one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. The items for both games are randomized and distributed across both games. For example, I found the first sword in Link to the Past above Samus's ship in Crateria in a secret area.

How do they deal with the linearity of Zelda games, where you NEED a certain item to succeed in a dungeon, before you can then get access to more items later? If I need the hookshot to pass the water temple, but it gives me the floating-light-boots, how am I supposed to beat the level?

Not an expert on how they do it, but I've played a few. The logic in these things is excellent, they won't ever give you an unsolvable game (and the Zelda ones have been playtested to death at this point). I think they just specify the prerequisites for each item and then just don't assign them if they are impossible to get, not sure how exactly the algorithm works but I can think some easy ways on how solve this problem once you have that list of dependencies.

You can still get the wrong items in the temple of course, it just means it's outside the temple. Sometimes you even have to go into a temple you can't beat, get an item from a chest, which allows you to get the required item outside, which then finally allows you to beat it.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#32

Post by crookshanked » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

Great topic, Check out Vinny from Vinesauce for a lot of good randomizer examples. He usually plays Zelda II around this time of year. Even watching someone else play such a game can inspire users to return to them. If you search around there is a website that has a big list of randomized games out there.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#33

Post by jfengel » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

Randomizers are also breathing new life into chess. Randomizing chess has been around for centuries, but especially since the 90s, when opening theory had become so stable that some grandmasters became bored with the memorization. Computers were especially good at that (though these days they've grown past that.)

So they're holding tournaments now with randomized chess pieces. They've just completed the first FIDE-recognized Fischer Random Chess tournament.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_random_chess

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#34

Post by ssully » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

Randomizers like this are interesting to me because I enjoy seeing people play with them, but hate playing with them myself. I tried one for Link to The Past and thought it was just frustrating. I think the frustration was in that the game was designed in a way without randomization in mind, so when forcing in randomization, it isn't as fun or interesting as a game built with randomization in mind from the start. If anything, it just led me to going back and playing something like Binding of Isaac again. Still cool! Just not for me I guess.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#35

Post by slphil » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #33

Randomizers are also breathing new life into chess. Randomizing chess has been around for centuries, but especially since the 90s, when opening theory had become so stable that some grandmasters became bored with the memorization. Computers were especially good at that (though these days they've grown past that.) So they're holding tournaments now with randomized chess pieces. They've just completed the first FIDE-re…

Unfortunately, a lot of strong chess players do not enjoy playing Chess960 because we've already invested hundreds of hours into learning openings and how those openings transition into a middlegame. While it's certainly fair (position is the same for both sides), it gives positions which are almost impossible to evaluate. This is exciting for spectators, but for me it's excruciatingly nerve-wracking. I can't play it.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#36

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #26

jdlyga wrote: post #9

I just finished a run of Link to the Past / Super Metroid crossover randomizer. And it's one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. The items for both games are randomized and distributed across both games. For example, I found the first sword in Link to the Past above Samus's ship in Crateria in a secret area.

How do they deal with the linearity of Zelda games, where you NEED a certain item to succeed in a dungeon, before you can then get access to more items later? If I need the hookshot to pass the water temple, but it gives me the floating-light-boots, how am I supposed to beat the level?

[deleted]

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#37

Post by nwallin » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #26

jdlyga wrote: post #9

I just finished a run of Link to the Past / Super Metroid crossover randomizer. And it's one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. The items for both games are randomized and distributed across both games. For example, I found the first sword in Link to the Past above Samus's ship in Crateria in a secret area.

How do they deal with the linearity of Zelda games, where you NEED a certain item to succeed in a dungeon, before you can then get access to more items later? If I need the hookshot to pass the water temple, but it gives me the floating-light-boots, how am I supposed to beat the level?

As others have noted, the logic is designed as such that it's always possible. It's a graph theory problem, although I don't know if it's coded that way or just a giant pile of if/else.

One interesting thing to note is that some of them have difficulty settings. Certain item dependency chains are more difficult than others, and the locations can be done such that it will always give you easy seeds or always give you hard seeds. Some of them are designed such that you'll always be required to do speedrun tech which are borderline exploits.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#38

Post by atum47 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

for my is funny to read this article, since it was one of the points I touched on my final thesis. how genetic algorithm and procedural generation could offer a new game experience every time you play a game.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#39

Post by CelestialTeapot » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

When I was 8 and all I had were half a dozen cartridges for my Atari, I would have loved this. Now, this might be interesting to try on a game or two, but I can afford any game I want and there are so many good games to play out there.

I can see the novelty, but I'd rather spend my free time on a well-designed game than a scrambled rehash of something I've already experienced.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#40

Post by mturmon » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

wcarss wrote: post #20

at_a_remove wrote: post #16

Ah, this is familiar. Decades ago, I had more or less topped out playing Othello against my Apple ][e. A game could be completed in under ninety seconds, with my moves being as fast as that of the computer. I took photos (with actual film) of beating the machine long before the board could be filled, but I was getting stale, essentially training myself to fight against this deterministic opponent who couldn't have be…

This sounds like an amusement source for an immortal being locked in a prison with just an Apple ][e during a randomly selected century (decade? year?) of their existence -- maybe an unexplored subplot of groundhog day? Anyway, that's really cool!

> ...immortal being locked in a prison with just an Apple ][e...

Sounds like me as a teenager.