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Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

sciencebusiness.net

31–40 of 53 posts

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#31
"Physics-based industries, it says, include electrical, civil and mechanical engineering, as well as computing and other industries reliant on physics research."

This model feels overly broad. For instance I'd agree developing a new process for microprocessor production is physics centric, but writing sofware is not and both are part of 'computing'.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#32
post #2

The conclusion of this study is not clear at all to me. From reading their executive summary, the CEBR researchers seem to take the global value added (GVA) of any physics-based industry, and consider it as a something like a contribution of physics to the society. That sounds like a gross overestimation to me. As an example, they consider "Extraction of crude petroleum" as a physics-based industry. Naively I would c…

Yeah, you've nailed it. If a spark plug manufacturer claimed that spark plugs added [insert amount] of value to the economy and claimed the entire amount of value cars add to the economy, everyone could and should call BS on that, despite the fact that without a spark plug, the car doesn't run. It's simply bad accounting.

Splitting hairs, but diesel cars are common in Europe and don't have spark plugs.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you've nailed it. If a spark plug manufacturer claimed that spark plugs added [insert amount] of value to the economy and claimed the entire amount of value cars add to the economy, everyone could and should call BS on that, despite the fact that without a spark plug, the car doesn't run. It's simply bad accounting.

Splitting hairs, but diesel cars are common in Europe and don't have spark plugs.

Brace yourself: you aren't splitting hairs, you're nitpicking.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. More seriously though gravity would keep banks on the ground regardless if we study it or not. So physics research doesn't really contribute in this case :(

But we only know it does because of physics, and without knowing there isn't a risk of banks floating away, people would be afraid of building banks. And, of course, mechanics generally are what enable the analysis of large static loads. Same issue with how studying life expectancy and mortality allows you to quantify the risk of death, injury and disease, thus enabling life insurance and health insurance. The proble…

I really don't think people would be afraid of banks floating away, Newton or no.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 33% physics, 33% chemistry, and 33% engineering How about financing investments, accounting, sales, supply-chain logistics and managing the business?

What about human resources and project coordination?!

What about catering and sanitation and security?

Seriously though, I don't think the point behind counting value created by every dependant into dependencies is necessarily a bad one. Surely there must be some mathematical concept that would allow to "balance" the value in a dependency network of industries.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#36
post #2

The conclusion of this study is not clear at all to me. From reading their executive summary, the CEBR researchers seem to take the global value added (GVA) of any physics-based industry, and consider it as a something like a contribution of physics to the society. That sounds like a gross overestimation to me. As an example, they consider "Extraction of crude petroleum" as a physics-based industry. Naively I would c…

This has indeed been spun in a way that it should not have been. But the way I see it is that out of the 700 possible sectors of industries in the EU, there are 72 "where the use of physics – in terms of technologies and expertise – is critical to their existence." [1]

These 72 sectors have a revenue of 4.40 million euros. This means that for example, if you ban all physics education tomorrow, all this revenue will drastically fall because they critically depend on physicists. Note that this is about ensuring that physicists of today are trained to continue working in this industry. And not what some physicists might have done in the past.

[1] https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.eps.org/resource/resmgr/policy/eps...

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about human resources and project coordination?!

What about catering and sanitation and security? Seriously though, I don't think the point behind counting value created by every dependant into dependencies is necessarily a bad one. Surely there must be some mathematical concept that would allow to "balance" the value in a dependency network of industries.

What about catering and sanitation and security?

You jest but all those people are listed before the post-credits scene of any blockbuster movie

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#38
post #2

The conclusion of this study is not clear at all to me. From reading their executive summary, the CEBR researchers seem to take the global value added (GVA) of any physics-based industry, and consider it as a something like a contribution of physics to the society. That sounds like a gross overestimation to me. As an example, they consider "Extraction of crude petroleum" as a physics-based industry. Naively I would c…

> 33% physics, 33% chemistry, and 33% engineering How about financing investments, accounting, sales, supply-chain logistics and managing the business?

You can have all those things - but without a steam engine your mine is staying full of water, and your industrial revolution isn’t happening.

Don’t know why you need supply chain logistics for a subsistence farm, because that’s the best you’ll get without physics.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#39
post #25

I'm hopefully a future physicist and the first to defend its importance but this kind of argument seems quite bad faith to me. " Physics-based industries are those that rely heavily on expertise in physics. These include oil and gas extraction, nuclear fuel processing, and various forms of manufacturing like fibre optics, lighting equipment, office machinery, cars, ships and armaments. " Oil extraction, gas, and ship…

You say that, but an awful lot of people doing maths in industry are physicists - mathematicians are far more likely to stay in academia. One of my first jobs was writing trading algorithms in the early 2000s - I was a physics student, most of the dev team were physicists or chemists. We got a mathematician in to consult on some gnarly cluster analysis - but after a month he presented us a white paper that was very, very pretty, and described our problem mathematically very succinctly - but totally unusable as it wasn’t so much a solution as a beautifully defined problem.

Re: Physics worth more to EU economy than retail and financial services, says study

#40
post #2

The conclusion of this study is not clear at all to me. From reading their executive summary, the CEBR researchers seem to take the global value added (GVA) of any physics-based industry, and consider it as a something like a contribution of physics to the society. That sounds like a gross overestimation to me. As an example, they consider "Extraction of crude petroleum" as a physics-based industry. Naively I would c…

They're correct in that the production of crude is not possible without the physics. It is a necessary input, ergo physics unlocks that economic activity. It sounds like your concern is that all three fields of Physics, Engineering, and Chemistry could claim this output, which would be odd, because if every field did this, their combined 'value added' would be many times the total GDP, since their contributions overl…

Ancient populations were digging holes in the ground before physics was invented.
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