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Bhopal disaster

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Re: Bhopal disaster

#31

Post by hyperman1 »

Aloha wrote: post #27

I'd note that Union Carbine paid out 470m dollars (970m 2018 dollars) to resolve claims - they also paid for and funded a hospital in the area as well. While its pretty clear that UCIL was very very negligent in plant maintenance, training and operations - its not abundantly clear that any of these were the proximate cause of the disaster - but rather contributory factors (which greatly enhanced the death toll) - its…

I've seen quite a few tv shows of bhopal, and none mentioned sabotage. All of them mentioned that the plant controls, gauges and alarms were so unreliable they had nothing to do with reality. Alarms went of for no reason at all while major problems went unnoticed.

So 'maybe it was sabotage' seems corporate blame shifting. It was somewhat unclear exactly how anything in there happened. That was their problem. It was only a matter of time before an accident happened.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#32

Post by Aloha »

hyperman1 wrote: post #31
Aloha wrote: post #27

I'd note that Union Carbine paid out 470m dollars (970m 2018 dollars) to resolve claims - they also paid for and funded a hospital in the area as well. While its pretty clear that UCIL was very very negligent in plant maintenance, training and operations - its not abundantly clear that any of these were the proximate cause of the disaster - but rather contributory factors (which greatly enhanced the death toll) - its…

I've seen quite a few tv shows of bhopal, and none mentioned sabotage. All of them mentioned that the plant controls, gauges and alarms were so unreliable they had nothing to do with reality. Alarms went of for no reason at all while major problems went unnoticed. So 'maybe it was sabotage' seems corporate blame shifting. It was somewhat unclear exactly how anything in there happened. That was their problem. It was o…

If they hadn’t paid money out to the government of India, I’d agree with you whole heartedly. UCIL, was very much responsible for disaster - I’m less convinced that Union Carbide itself was culpable even though it paid.

But even then responsibility is not cause, and for me asan engineer I’m more interested in cause.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#33

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

Aloha wrote: post #27

I'd note that Union Carbine paid out 470m dollars (970m 2018 dollars) to resolve claims - they also paid for and funded a hospital in the area as well. While its pretty clear that UCIL was very very negligent in plant maintenance, training and operations - its not abundantly clear that any of these were the proximate cause of the disaster - but rather contributory factors (which greatly enhanced the death toll) - its…

I don’t know why you got downvoted. The sabotage theory makes the most sense when taking into account all the facts.

Yes Union Carbide were criminally negligent, but justice and truth must be respected, regardless of how much people love stories about evil corporations.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#34

Post by simula67 »

LadyCailin wrote: post #28
alienallys wrote: post #12

A poor country like India can't extract justice from a rich one. We're the so-called third world, so don't deserve to ask questions.

So you expect America to come in and police other countries? No, sorry. India is a sovereign country, and is the only country empowered and expected to police industries operating in India.

From the linked article :

> in 1987, the Indian government summoned Anderson, eight other executives and two company affiliates with homicide charges to appear in Indian court. In response, Union Carbide said the company is not under Indian jurisdiction.

Union Carbide was an American company that happened to operate in India. Indian government does need help from the American government to police an American company.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#35

Post by adrianN »

ckastner wrote: post #26
acidburnNSA wrote: post #21

It's really surprising that this and the Banqiao dam failure that killed 230,000 are fairly unknown to the west while Chernobyl is a household name, which killed ~60 first responders and "up to 4000" from early cancer deaths (using conservative linear no threshold models of dose response) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam

I also bring up that example quite frequently. I believe that is because conceptually, radiation is such a foreign concept to people. Who can blame them, they only hear it in the context of danger (for example, when getting an x-ray) or catastrophe (Chernobyl). But they'll happily eat a banana.

The difference is that a dam disaster is fairly localized in both time and space and the damage is visible. When your feet are dry you're safe. With radiation, the area is poisoned for generations and the danger is invisible. You don't know whether eating that mushroom will lead to a birth defect in your next child.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#36

Post by altacc »

Aloha wrote: post #27

I'd note that Union Carbine paid out 470m dollars (970m 2018 dollars) to resolve claims - they also paid for and funded a hospital in the area as well. While its pretty clear that UCIL was very very negligent in plant maintenance, training and operations - its not abundantly clear that any of these were the proximate cause of the disaster - but rather contributory factors (which greatly enhanced the death toll) - its…

Applying Occam's razor, an unusual event like sabotage would need more than circumstantial evidence. There is a long list of contributing factors towards corporate negligence that makes an accident much more likely.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that the training for workers at the time of the accident was a small fraction of that originally intended for workers at the plant, and the reason for this was a financial decision taken by plant management under pressure from Union Carbide, not because the training wasn't needed.

A probable cause of the incident was water left in pipes by a worker, ordered by a novice supervisor, washing out a pipe; a process that was prohibited by plant rules. Extensive and repeated training imprints processes & rules into people's minds. If that action was the cause then with better training, both worker and supervisor would have known not to do this.

Re: Bhopal disaster

#37

Post by peteretep »

alienallys wrote: post #12

A poor country like India can't extract justice from a rich one. We're the so-called third world, so don't deserve to ask questions.

> A poor country like India can't extract justice from a rich one

50% of the plant was owned by Indian banks and the Government, and Indian courts jailed 7 Indian nationals for various failings related to this. Which country exactly are you expecting is meant to be picking up the slack here?

Re: Bhopal disaster

#38

Post by peteretep »

simula67 wrote: post #34
LadyCailin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you expect America to come in and police other countries? No, sorry. India is a sovereign country, and is the only country empowered and expected to police industries operating in India.

From the linked article : > in 1987, the Indian government summoned Anderson, eight other executives and two company affiliates with homicide charges to appear in Indian court. In response, Union Carbide said the company is not under Indian jurisdiction. Union Carbide was an American company that happened to operate in India. Indian government does need help from the American government to police an American company.

Union Carbide was an American company, that owned 50% of Union Carbide India Limited. The other 50% was owned "by Indian investors including the Government of India and government-controlled banks". The legal case was sent to India, because "UCIL was a separate and independent legal entity managed and staffed by Indian citizens". It's still around today: "Eveready Industries India Ltd. (EIIL), formerly Union Carbide India Limited, is the flagship company of the B. M. Khaitan Group".

Re: Bhopal disaster

#39

Post by ozmaverick72 »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #21

It's really surprising that this and the Banqiao dam failure that killed 230,000 are fairly unknown to the west while Chernobyl is a household name, which killed ~60 first responders and "up to 4000" from early cancer deaths (using conservative linear no threshold models of dose response) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam

According to the HBO series on Chernobyl the Russians deliberately kept no statistics on radiation related illness and deaths related to the accident. They said estimates ranged from the number you quoted to upwards of 90 000 deaths. Thanks for telling us about the Banqiao dam failure I will read more about it.
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