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Python at Scale: Strict Modules

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Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#31

Post by timothycrosley »

carapace wrote: post #27
timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

Cython? Nuitka?

I use Cython a lot! But mostly to speed up existing Python code, and build C-extensions faster. I don't see it as a strict subset of Python or a new language to build a community around. Nuitka I just started experimenting with to build standalone Python executable, and I really like the direction and roadmap they are following. In the end though both of these technologies seem like ways to somewhat speedup existing Python code and not attempts to introduce a strict language subset that would allow the greatest amount of optimization, and finally fix long running issues, like the inability to have multiple versions of a package installed.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#32

Post by bcherny »

miki123211 wrote: post #21

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're w…

> I wish there was a language that let you move gradually from one end to the other, exactly when you need to.

This is precisely what gradually typed languages — like TypeScript, Flow, and typed Pythons — solve!

I talked about this on Software Engineering Radio last week: https://www.se-radio.net/2019/10/episode-384-boris-cherny-on....

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#33

Post by bratao »

timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

There is https://github.com/python/mypy/tree/master/mypyc that I think is a great idea and approach

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#34

Post by staticassertion »

timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

https://github.com/python/mypy/tree/master/mypyc

This may interest you. This is probably going to be the 'official' way to get what you're talking about.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#35

Post by TylerE »

victor106 wrote: post #25
TylerE wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is starting large-scale new projects in Java in 2019?

One of my clients handles 90% of all the pbm routing in the US, which is millions of transactions per second. They started to completely modernize the application on java... primarily Spring Boot and Apache Geode. After some optimizations they are very happy with the performance and expressiveness of modern java.

I said new projects. Not upgrades.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#36

Post by timothycrosley »

scrollaway wrote: post #30
timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

Python has some of my favourite syntax as well but I absolutely hate its annotations. TypeScript got typings right. I think the killer language will be typescript with access to both the python and JavaScript ecosystems. We'll see what that looks like. And of course if something changes the syntax, better anonymous functions will be the absolute first thing I would look for...

> TypeScript got typings right.

I have not used TypeScript, but looking at it's documentation the syntax for type annotations look identical. Would you be willing to expand on why you think its approach is better / how it's different?

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#37

Post by TylerE »

scrollaway wrote: post #30
timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

Python has some of my favourite syntax as well but I absolutely hate its annotations. TypeScript got typings right. I think the killer language will be typescript with access to both the python and JavaScript ecosystems. We'll see what that looks like. And of course if something changes the syntax, better anonymous functions will be the absolute first thing I would look for...

I don't think there is any sort of long-term future in anything "Python". I think a successful modern language has to have the potential for efficient concurrency baked in, which isn't really possible without breaking compatibility, and the Python community would never survive another round like the 2->3 transition. (And I'm not convinced the community really survived that one either, given the amount of ongoing bitterness about the whole situation).

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#38

Post by timothycrosley »

staticassertion wrote: post #34
timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

https://github.com/python/mypy/tree/master/mypyc This may interest you. This is probably going to be the 'official' way to get what you're talking about.

Thank you for sharing! This looks really promising, I'll try to think of ways I can contribute to the project.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#40

Post by scrollaway »

timothycrosley wrote: post #36
scrollaway wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python has some of my favourite syntax as well but I absolutely hate its annotations. TypeScript got typings right. I think the killer language will be typescript with access to both the python and JavaScript ecosystems. We'll see what that looks like. And of course if something changes the syntax, better anonymous functions will be the absolute first thing I would look for...

> TypeScript got typings right. I have not used TypeScript, but looking at it's documentation the syntax for type annotations look identical. Would you be willing to expand on why you think its approach is better / how it's different?

No importing basic types, using binary operators instead of awful things like Union and bracket accessors and what not, inline interfaces...

Try it a bit. it truly is enjoyable. Fifteen years of python and I'm still enjoying TypeScript more.

Mypy is limited by annotations having to be compatible python syntax.

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