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Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

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Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#31

Basically this is a helm chart. Which is one of the problems of k8s - a typical application consists of multiple services that need to be deployed together. In Docker Swarm, that's a Stack. K8s has no equivalent. So there's no answer to "how do i deploy/update my flask api and celery workers together"

Actually, Docker can now deploy stacks as a k8s “stack” resource: https://www.docker.com/blog/simplifying-kubernetes-with-dock...

This makes it especially easy for anyone transitioning from Docker Swarm to Kubernetes.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#32
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but YAML as configuration has some pretty significant drawbacks in that the natural (but disastrous) trend is towards using text templating systems to generate YAML files. It’s also a bit difficult to parse or write correctly. Yes, you “shouldn’t” use text templating systems for YAML and you “should” use well-tested YAML parsers and emitters. But I am very skeptical here, especially given that this won…

i honestly have trouble understanding the love for yaml when decades ago everything was xml and it was almost universally hated. technically you can define a yaml-xml isomorphism and as a consequence they both should be treated as unsuitable, and yet... yaml somehow is cool and xml isn't. am i just old?

The fact that they're isomorphic to machine partly misses the point. Yaml is immensely more friendly on the human to write (and read). Yaml is used when people need to write declarative instructions to machines, and it does a good job of that. XML is much more of a pain to read and write by hand.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#33

Basically this is a helm chart. Which is one of the problems of k8s - a typical application consists of multiple services that need to be deployed together. In Docker Swarm, that's a Stack. K8s has no equivalent. So there's no answer to "how do i deploy/update my flask api and celery workers together"

Actually, Docker can now deploy stacks as a k8s “stack” resource: https://www.docker.com/blog/simplifying-kubernetes-with-dock... This makes it especially easy for anyone transitioning from Docker Swarm to Kubernetes.

True. However the fact remains that k8s doesn't have a primitive here - so the toolsets (helm, docker stacks) have to manage it on a beat effort basis.

In Swarm, the stack is an atomic unit.

That's what Microsoft is trying to fix - the atomicity of an abstraction level that is higher than K8s Services.

Not sure why they didnt do this as part of the k8s core committee process.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but YAML as configuration has some pretty significant drawbacks in that the natural (but disastrous) trend is towards using text templating systems to generate YAML files. It’s also a bit difficult to parse or write correctly. Yes, you “shouldn’t” use text templating systems for YAML and you “should” use well-tested YAML parsers and emitters. But I am very skeptical here, especially given that this won…

i honestly have trouble understanding the love for yaml when decades ago everything was xml and it was almost universally hated. technically you can define a yaml-xml isomorphism and as a consequence they both should be treated as unsuitable, and yet... yaml somehow is cool and xml isn't. am i just old?

I didn’t understand the XML hate either. It was just a bit annoying to parse, depending on the language and ecosystem you used. It was a little verbose, but so what?

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#35
post #32
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i honestly have trouble understanding the love for yaml when decades ago everything was xml and it was almost universally hated. technically you can define a yaml-xml isomorphism and as a consequence they both should be treated as unsuitable, and yet... yaml somehow is cool and xml isn't. am i just old?

The fact that they're isomorphic to machine partly misses the point. Yaml is immensely more friendly on the human to write (and read). Yaml is used when people need to write declarative instructions to machines, and it does a good job of that. XML is much more of a pain to read and write by hand.

I used to think YAML was friendly for humans to read. Then I wrote a parser for it, and discovered all the weird corners, edge cases, etc. I now consider it to be a fairly user-hostile format, which should be avoided in favor of just about everything else (XML, JSON, TOML, text protobuf, etc are all more friendly).

For example, consider this map of regions in YAML:

    regions:
      northamerica: [ca, us, mx]
      scandinavia: [dk, no, se, ax, fi, fo, gl, is, sj]
Spot the error!

Writing a parser is also a bit of a nightmare, because there are a bunch of features which can turn a bit dangerous if you’re not careful—things like cyclic graphs or declaring types of objects. These are complete non-issues for the other formats I listed above—they’re all trees, and it’s very unusual for parsers to let you instantiate unintended types with those formats.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they're isomorphic to machine partly misses the point. Yaml is immensely more friendly on the human to write (and read). Yaml is used when people need to write declarative instructions to machines, and it does a good job of that. XML is much more of a pain to read and write by hand.

I used to think YAML was friendly for humans to read. Then I wrote a parser for it, and discovered all the weird corners, edge cases, etc. I now consider it to be a fairly user-hostile format, which should be avoided in favor of just about everything else (XML, JSON, TOML, text protobuf, etc are all more friendly). For example, consider this map of regions in YAML: regions: northamerica: [ca, us, mx] scandinavia: [dk…

> Stop the error!

I know this is rhetorical, but I've been bitten by this enough times so for those who don't know `no` will translate to a boolean false.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea that a Ops needs to wake up in the middle of the night to deal with shit outages because a developer is unwilling to stand behind their code is probably outdated. Build & Run is becoming very popular.

We're reaching a point where two groups of people, rather than one, is required to wake up in the middle of the night. Previously just the operations people needed to get up, now developers need to be on-call as well. Operations teams are scaling down their monitoring to just infrastructure, because the applications are more opaque than ever. Incidents at the application level are no longer fixable by Ops, because th…

I would say that the problem in this situation is hard to avoid. If you can have an operations team who are experts on the application as well, and have the team more closely integrated with the development team, then you generally don’t need to wake up developers at night. I spent a few years on a team set up like this and it worked very well. If your project isn’t big enough for its own operation team you can share a team between a few different projects.

But I don’t think it’s necessarily that much harder to hire developers than it is to hire devops. Some managers have told me that hiring for devops is harder.

And developers should feel some of the pain—I’m not saying page them in the middle of the night, but they should be doing daytime on-call rotations. This helps align incentives and makes developers aware of reliability issues in the systems that they create.

> In my opinion your company/solution needs to be somewhat limited for "DevOps" to make sense. For everyone else, it's two separate roles.

When I think DevOps, I already think of it as a role separate from development. You have devs, and then you have devops. You can combine both roles into one, and that makes sense for smaller / earlier stage projects, but otherwise I think of devops as a separate role.

Kind of a mess because devops varies so much between companies and isn’t even consistently named.

But my experience is that it’s not necessary to wake up two groups of people—it’s either a developer that gets woken up because the project is too small or too early to be supported by operations, or it’s someone in devops/SRE/production engineer who gets woken up. There’s a lot of practices that need to be put into place to make this work, but it’s doable.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea that a Ops needs to wake up in the middle of the night to deal with shit outages because a developer is unwilling to stand behind their code is probably outdated. Build & Run is becoming very popular.

We're reaching a point where two groups of people, rather than one, is required to wake up in the middle of the night. Previously just the operations people needed to get up, now developers need to be on-call as well. Operations teams are scaling down their monitoring to just infrastructure, because the applications are more opaque than ever. Incidents at the application level are no longer fixable by Ops, because th…

Yes and no.

Realstically, if the platform isn't down, I wouldn't need to wake up my platform engineer, just the dev. But the point is, the dev should build more reliable software so they don't have to wake up.

However, you're right, often these are two different teams. There are some people that can do both, but they're few and far between.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the problem that kubernetes solves, and pretty much every bank or big org I've been involved with have little fiefdoms fighting against teamwork... err I mean DevOps.

In finance at least, there are often regulators that get in the way. For example, in my current company, we’d love to support our anemic Ops team, however a developer having any kind of influence on the deployment process is strictly forbidden by our regulator.

I'm not entirly sure this is a regulatory requirement so much so, it's the solution to the requirement.

I'd need to look at the regs directly, but I believe just having different roles would be enough, i.e. not being logged in as a production admin all day long, and doing devops and CI/CD, would probably allow a dev to support production under break glass circumstances.

Re: Microsoft launches new open-source projects around Kubernetes and microservices

#40
We've been working on something similar for a few years now. Micro is a runtime for microservices https://github.com/micro/micro. We primarily focused on Go and are moving towards multilanguage via a http api, proxy and SDKs much like dapr.
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