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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

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Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#31
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of comments have no qualms with respecting one's mode of self-identification, but rather, with the method by which S.E. has chosen to approach it. In other words, the commenters have an issue with the poor execution of a noble idea .

Genuinely, what's the poor execution? They seem to have basically codified "use someone's stated pronouns" with an awareness of the common ways people try to get around it. It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.

> It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.

Because the policy isn't about respecting gender identity; it's about having a political battle where there are no winners.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#32

ming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek

Nothing better to do

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#33
post #2

Now it seems StackOverflow knows how YouTube feels whenever they post a YouTube Rewind video. That one got absolutely downvoted to all hell, and for similar reasons to this post. Hopefully they'll look at this, see the amount of dislikes it's getting and change course again/revert this mess to the way it was before.

This "mess" is an attempt to encourage/enforce basic decency in their community. Why do you think they should "change course"?

It’s like making it illegal to not greet your neighbor each morning. The underlying premise is to make things nicer, but it’s also just stupid. A good rule would be “try to be considerate of pronoun preferences”.

The wants of the LGBTQA community are, in the eyes of the majority, probably not this. I like to be polite and respectful. I’ll be honest though, I would guess that less than 0.1% of the English speaking population identifies as “Xir” and that a non trivial portion of those that do are comfortable with the understanding that random strangers are more comfortable using gender neutral language. I would further posit that the portion of those that are not ok with people having points of view favoring even gender neutral language and instead demand the usage of the term Xir have adopted it as a counter cultural stance to combat heteronormativity- which honestly is fine, but it’s also a move made knowingly to make some people uncomfortable which by any metric must be ruder than someone who is just trying to avoid controversy at all by using gender neutral pronouns to begin with. I’m a left leaning adult, and I think it’s pretty bullshit. Especially on the Internet where women have been assumed to be men by default for decades.

If I misgender someone, and they ask me to use any specific pronoun in the future, I probably will. If the responder instead gets angry and implies that I am rude because I made a common assumption, and instead asserts that I’m going to tell them to buzz off.

Rudeness is clearly a subjective concept based around intent. And it’s frankly a waste of people’s time.

Imagine if every post had pronouns at the end, and if every man then demanded a correction for a use of they instead of “he”. That would be a waste of time and disrespectful to the ability of everyone else to be an adult.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#34

ming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek

https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-05-28

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#35
post #22

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to co…

I don't think your post is off-topic at all.

We have very few signals in this medium that can tell us if someone is acting in bad faith, or just simply made a mistake. The scary thing about this code of conduct change is that it's mandating required behavior, which is a little unusual: most items in a code of conduct remind people of things they should not do, but speak in general only about behaviors that promote inclusiveness. This new bit is very specific, and lays out rules for how to use language. English itself is not a particularly consistent language even within English-majority countries like the US or UK; differences are huge between countries, especially when English isn't the primary language, due both to cultural convention and personal skill with the language.

I do think we should refer to people using their preferred pronouns when known. But we need to make allowances for mistakes; sadly I expect that the norm will be an assumption of bad faith when simple mistakes are likely to be the most common case.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I've only ever encountered people getting "deeply offended" over intentional misrepresentation of gender. I hear far more people complaining about people being upset about being misgendered than people actually upset about being misgendered. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that in my experience the counter-"outrage culture" in many cases blows things way more out of proportion t…

The introduction of this policy rather contradicts your claim.

[deleted]

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#37
post #23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What will happen with grammatically gendered languages, like Spanish?

They hamfist in their solution of using "x". eg. latina/latino -> latinx.

How does that work in the language itself? In English people say "latin-ecks". In Spanish do people say "latin-equis"?

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#38

If it's that much of a concern just put a validation filter on the comment submission box that has you "gender neutralize" your submission/answers if they find "he/her" type language in there. I mean - it's a clear-enough defined problem to solve with software and I've found that if you mess up a gender pronoun on accident people sometimes get deeply offended. I've gone 100% to the "they/them/you/their user name/etc.…

For what it's worth, I've only ever encountered people getting "deeply offended" over intentional misrepresentation of gender. I hear far more people complaining about people being upset about being misgendered than people actually upset about being misgendered. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that in my experience the counter-"outrage culture" in many cases blows things way more out of proportion t…

Anecdotal, but I have definitely seen people be hurt when it's not intentional... and honestly, I feel for them.

I can't truly relate but I can be empathetic. Folks bug me sometimes when they assume in conversation that I'm close to my family (because most people are). In reality I come from an abusive family and tend to not want to talk/think about them.

I understand that it's a completely different thing, but I'm using it to illustrate that _all_ of us should be good to each other, and realize that sometimes we can hurt someone's feelings without a single bit of intention to do so!

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The introduction of this policy rather contradicts your claim.

In what way? I think it only supports my claims. How much visible outrage was there from people being misgendered? Yet there is a thread full of people complaining about having to adjust their language. It seems to me there is way more people upset about changing language than were upset about being misgendered. Unless there is some meta thread you can point me to which is full of people complaining about being misge…

The visible outrage is not from people "complaining about people being upset about being misgendered", it is from people complaining about an actual policy change introducing compelled speech. If people complaining about being misgendered is as rare as you suggest then why does stack exchange feel the need to push through such a controversial policy change?
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