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What If Algorithms Could Be Fair?

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31–33 of 33 posts

Re: What If Algorithms Could Be Fair?

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room is that the real way to tell whether that is the case would be to use race as a factor the same as age or sex. If African Americans are more careful drivers then that would detect it and take it into account. But then you have to take the bad with the good. If it turns out that strict adherence to traffic laws that nobody else abides is actually more dangerous than following the normal flow o…

Well it may be the case that they accidentally have a proxy for race already in their data (the "this ethnicity prefers red cars" hypothetical in the article above.) So race may already in practice be factored in despite nobody intending for that to be the case (assuming nobody anticipated that a particular metric is a racial proxy.) That does not necessarily mean it's being unfair to that race though. It could, hypo…

The whole "proxy for race" thing is such a mess.

The original problem was that racists were not just taking race into account but were disproportionately penalizing certain races. They would literally just refuse to do business with black people. And then once that was made illegal, they would refuse to do business with people from black neighborhoods (redlining), i.e. use location as a proxy for race so they could continue to refuse to do business with black people under that pretext.

Normal Bayesian statistics doesn't do that because it's missing the actually racist piece of it, which is giving disproportionate weight to race (or something that correlates with race) so that you refuse disproportionately many people of a particular race for no legitimate reason.

The unfairness never came from taking into account some factor that correlates with race, or even race itself to the extent that it actually correlates with outcomes. It came from using a factor to deny service even though it didn't correlate with outcomes, or if it did then still not proportionately to the huge negative weight assigned to it. It came from giving race, or a proxy for race, disproportionate weight. Giving it proportionate weight isn't unfair, it's the only thing that is fair.

Re: What If Algorithms Could Be Fair?

#32
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a strong push for "fairness", see e.g. "Toronto Declaration". I think all it would do is completely halt progress of AI and install bureaucracy to the lowest decision levels, paralyzing whole ML research. Nobody seems to think that we are in a clash of different cultures with different sensitivities and there is no single common platform for stating what is "fair". I am worried the loudest voice would set th…

> There is a strong push for "fairness", see e.g. "Toronto Declaration". I think all it would do is completely halt progress of AI and install bureaucracy to the lowest decision levels, paralyzing whole ML research. It would only paralyze those who paid attention to the Toronto Declaration. You’re right because you can’t make ML fair because the universe isn’t fair, that’s a property of human judgements about facts.…

Except any 2 humans don't have matching ideas about what's fair, which means that they're both unfair from eachother's perspective.

Humans are in reality much less fair than algorithms.

Re: What If Algorithms Could Be Fair?

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it may be the case that they accidentally have a proxy for race already in their data (the "this ethnicity prefers red cars" hypothetical in the article above.) So race may already in practice be factored in despite nobody intending for that to be the case (assuming nobody anticipated that a particular metric is a racial proxy.) That does not necessarily mean it's being unfair to that race though. It could, hypo…

The whole "proxy for race" thing is such a mess. The original problem was that racists were not just taking race into account but were disproportionately penalizing certain races. They would literally just refuse to do business with black people. And then once that was made illegal, they would refuse to do business with people from black neighborhoods (redlining), i.e. use location as a proxy for race so they could c…

I fully agree and admire the skill with which you've stated this.
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