The China Cultural Clash • Hacker News Board

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#31

Post by yorwba » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

juanjmanfredi wrote: post #20

I'm curious as to what happens if the NBA does in fact get banned from China. I've always wondered whether, as the Chinese economy grows and living standards rise, individuals would ever feel more entitled to individual rights. Of course maybe this is just a western bias. If the NBA was blocked, would passionate Chinese NBA fans (of which there are many) fall in line? Or not?

They'd just watch via VPN, if other bans are any indication. Of course not everyone knows how to use a VPN, but the NBA becoming unavailable might be an impetus to figure it out.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#32

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #25

tpmx wrote: post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

The world vs China? The US, Canada, the EU, and Australia make up less than 20% of the worlds population. India, the many countries of Africa and South and Central America are places I've not heard from on this. And, there is a large population there. Is it the world vs China or the parts of the world we typically listen to vs China?

[deleted]

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#33

Post by ashelmire » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

jimclegg wrote: post #23

tpmx wrote: post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

Not the world vs China, it has always been the West vs China, European leaders' "zero sum" mentality has made it an economic target for the better part of 2+ centuries. Please don't include the majority of the world that is benefiting from a new benevolent economic actor on the block.

You're considering China to be a new benevolent economic actor?

Can you explain what behavior you consider "benevolent"?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#34

Post by smackay » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

It is rather interesting to see Stratechery talk about values when normally the articles are about markets and capital. I don't how the latter, since they are inherently amoral, can accommodate values either. As a result the argument seemed a little forced. Surely if China is an important market for western companies then the rules of that market apply. It is only to be expected that in a global market there must a corresponding globalisation of the rules and norms. Free speech might not be on that list.

I do have to take issue that this is a cultural problem. I don't regard the Communist Party of China to be guardian of culture in China. The country did rather well for thousands of years before it's existence and will no doubt do well for thousands more after it's demise.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#35

Post by dmix » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

The US is still special in this context where free speech is really taken to heart and extends to not only dissent against the government but even vile extremely unpopular political opinions are protected ...which is something you don't always find in every western country.

For example, in Charlottesville 2017 [1] the local government tried to prevent Neo-nazis from using a park for a protest but ACLU sued the gov and got approval. From there the police actively protected their right to protest.

Which really highlights the massive gap between the US and China. It's not just 'don't silence them' but they have a right to speak and be protected while protesting on public grounds by the state from violence by other government organizations and citizens who disagree with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally#Permits_...

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#36

Post by AFascistWorld » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

This is just inevitable, if it's not NBA, it could be any big company who gets caught in it, execs can pretend it will be all good and surely do wish this day comes as late as possible so they can make the most of it.

This is like many things in the current world, vicious cycles, the more unsympathetic ordinary Chinese perceive outside China, the more they will embrace the CCP and strongmen, the more powerful the party will be.

And solution seems don't exist. Xi said "You don't eat the meal then break the wok", So there's only one question:

Who's next?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#37

Post by knzhou » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

The Chinese get pissed off at political statements Americans find innocuous. Europeans are angry over the dominance of American tech companies which they are unable to control. Americans are panicked at the very idea of anybody non-Western being associated with any technology they use, as we saw with FaceApp and 5G.

This was all inevitable, and it's going to lead to siloed-off, separate internets for every region in the world. I always find it amusing and a bit sad when people condemn the Great Firewall, and then immediately turn around and demand their country get one too. Neutrality is impossible; no platform can please everybody.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#38

Post by curiousgal » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

Adobe recently blocked all Venzuelans because of an executive order.

Foreign companies are sanctionned by the US for dealing with Iranian entities even if their countries have no issue with Iran. (Huawei's executive was even arrested in Canada on behalf of the US for that).

My point is, why should we hold companies accountable for enforcing a certain national policy when A, companies have always done awful things in the name of their owners/shareholders and B, the US itself uses companies as a proxy for its policies?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#39

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #17

Attempts by China to leverage market access into self-censorship by U.S. companies should also be treated as trade violations that are subject to retaliation. Thank you, Ben, for this honest appraisal which involves sticking out your neck and perhaps even harming your ability to travel to China or expand your business. Regarding this comment about Apple: And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China…

Note that Cook became CEO because of his logistics and operations work in China, so there is a lot of legacy to go on.

Apple assembles iPhones in Brazil and I believe India now, but these are mostly for high tariff reasons. Much of what goes into an iPhone isn’t made in china (and what is made in China can easily be made elsewhere), but they are mostly made in east Asia, so having assembly done somewhere in the region. Apple could always go to Taiwan (labor is more expensive, but they could maybe rely on automation more) or Vietnam. However, whatever they would do would cost them, a cost they could pay if needed but probably not one they want to pay right now.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#40

Post by golergka » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

Is it?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly on US side in this one - but Russia, India, Brazil, and many, many other world powers aren't particularly opposed to China on this one. They're trying to implement the same domestic capabilities, and indeed agree with China's opinion on national sovereignity and limitations of speech.

It was a great time, when US could dictate the world it's values and the world listened - as much as HN public loves to bash US government (I guess, a concious person is always critical of his own country), it's still one of the best democracies in the world. But that time is gone. Liberal consensus is not "the world"'s opinion anymore.