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Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

economist.com

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Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#31

Post by Iv »

baybal2 wrote: post #26
Iv wrote: post #19

I really would like an alternative to Shenzhen for cheap manufacturing. Does anyone here have experience with factories located elsewhere?

Have experience in Vietnam. Some clients been asking for manufacturing there, but often get surprised that it will both be harder and cost the more than in China. Still some persist, and do that. You have to effectively import everything from China, and just do final assembly there. I see close to no point doing that when local inputs cannot reach even 10% of the value.

Do you know if there is any decent plastic molding industry in Vietnam? I have something that needs off the shelf electronics (may buy them in China) but will have to meet manufacturers in person for the final assembly and plastic casing, which on a small series is probably going to be a sizeable portion of the cost (and seriously, that's more about ideology than cost anyway).

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#32

Post by turnkeyreverse »

mindentropy wrote: post #28
BAReF00t wrote: post #5

[flagged]

> with nets being installed due to people jumping out of windows I see a lot of flak given to Foxconn (maybe because of them being Chinese). What is your opinion on the recent Facebook suicide? Also the articles on mental damage moderating articles in Facebook etc.

What kind of an idiot compares ONE suicide in the us to hundreds in chinese companies? Seriously, do you think that is comparable?

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#33

Post by syedkarim »

Iv wrote: post #31
baybal2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have experience in Vietnam. Some clients been asking for manufacturing there, but often get surprised that it will both be harder and cost the more than in China. Still some persist, and do that. You have to effectively import everything from China, and just do final assembly there. I see close to no point doing that when local inputs cannot reach even 10% of the value.

Do you know if there is any decent plastic molding industry in Vietnam? I have something that needs off the shelf electronics (may buy them in China) but will have to meet manufacturers in person for the final assembly and plastic casing, which on a small series is probably going to be a sizeable portion of the cost (and seriously, that's more about ideology than cost anyway).

For plastic mold injection it's less about the infrastructure and more about how competent and reliable the supplier is. Circuit board assembly requires parts to be sourced. With plastics it's possible to be more logistically self-sufficient. You should be able to find what you need in Vietnam, but unfortunately I can't point to any specific sources.

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#34

Post by syedkarim »

Iv wrote: post #30
syedkarim wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly quote PCBAs in different countries. If you are looking for any place as cheap as China, I can't say that such a place exists. The only way that the math works out is by building the product yourself with a cheap SMT line. Using a domestic CM is a non-starter for a low-margin consumer product.

That's for ideological reasons that I am looking for an alternative. I am just wondering what would be the additional cost. Is that more than 2x the cost?

I've found the domestic premium too be anywhere from 3X to 10X. It really depends on how much is being done. We sometimes build antennas, which are single layer PCBs. The cost-delta at production volumes is about 3X. On a circuit board assembly I've paid 15x more to build in the US, where the turnaround time was significantly slower and production yield was worse. This is CM-specific, of course.

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#35

Post by reaperducer »

throwe3123332 wrote: post #3

> To the west, it sees its most talented engineers working in Silicon Valley. By pouring millions of dollars into Indian-made semiconductors, India’s government hopes to solve both problems at once. It really can't. Considering the "rootless" nature of Indian urban life, education and society, both culturally and linguistically, the lack of "pull" ensures that any money you pour into its colonial institutions is only…

There is little precedence of such a deeply colonial state ever being able to help its subjects in a meaningful way

America was a British colony, too, once upon a time.

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#36

Post by saagarjha »

madez wrote: post #4

I'm very excited about India's ambitions. It would not only be meaningful for India, but for many people around the world. We are lacking open chips, and project Shakti is on a trajectory to solve a part of that. I wonder when GCC learns to use the source code of the hardware along with the source code of the software to optimize the binary with full knowledge of the system.

> I wonder when GCC learns to use the source code of the hardware along with the source code of the software to optimize the binary with full knowledge of the system.

Wouldn’t this just mean not having to rely as much on Agner Fog?

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#38

Post by baybal2 »

Iv wrote: post #31
baybal2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have experience in Vietnam. Some clients been asking for manufacturing there, but often get surprised that it will both be harder and cost the more than in China. Still some persist, and do that. You have to effectively import everything from China, and just do final assembly there. I see close to no point doing that when local inputs cannot reach even 10% of the value.

Do you know if there is any decent plastic molding industry in Vietnam? I have something that needs off the shelf electronics (may buy them in China) but will have to meet manufacturers in person for the final assembly and plastic casing, which on a small series is probably going to be a sizeable portion of the cost (and seriously, that's more about ideology than cost anyway).

Even ordinary quality level plastics parts can often be easier to import from China there, moreover now. Even things like plastic bathtubs is a challenge at the moment. Not many options for small businesses there other than to work with garage factories, with all resulting complications.

I will be glad to get in touch with you if you really need to make it there, and you are really ready to pay. For a project under $100k you will likely pay a fee from 10% to 20%. Disclaimer, this is not a binding commercial offer

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#39

Post by saimiam »

accidentaldev wrote: post #15
simongray wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their middle class is bigger than that of the USA or I think even that of the entire EU. According to Wikipedia: "Indian middle class is 3% or 40 million of Indian population." That's not a whole lot of people and definitely not comparable to North America or Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_India

The same article has other stat that says anywhere between 30-300 million are considered middle class. Is there a consensus among economists on what the real number is ?

My wife’s most cited and quoted paper is on correctly defining the Indian middle class. Happy to share the link if there’s interest.

Re: Fab in India: India is trying to create an indigenous chip-making industry

#40

Post by happycube »

analognoise wrote: post #27
madez wrote: post #4

I'm very excited about India's ambitions. It would not only be meaningful for India, but for many people around the world. We are lacking open chips, and project Shakti is on a trajectory to solve a part of that. I wonder when GCC learns to use the source code of the hardware along with the source code of the software to optimize the binary with full knowledge of the system.

We will never have competitive chips that are open down to the transistor and process level. Down to the RTL, sure. But a truly open competitive chip, never ever. You might get one on some ancient process from 20 years ago, which will be handily outclassed in every single metric except openness, which people make noise about but don't actually pay for (so no business case).

A ~20 year old process... that'd be 250nm or 180nm, which is Just Fine for many microcontrollers, if not the new 600mhz-1ghz Cortex M7's...
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