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Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

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31–40 of 42 posts

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#31
post #5

The battle for privacy was lost during the last decade - as in "we lost the war". http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2005/22C3-920-en-we_lost... The best we can hope for in future is a transparent or sousveillance society where an informational balance of power is maintained. Currently the main bottleneck is ISPs, and these are points of weakness where top-down control can be introduced to a greater or lesser extent…

I really like the "Flash version 9,0 or greater is required". ;-)

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#32
post #19
post #4

I think one of the most well known and egregious example of large scale surveillance outfit is the Stasi. It's reported that there was one informer per every 6 and a half people. Possibly the highest ratio of all known examples. Stasiland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasiland is a fascinating read. And of course "The Lives of Others" is a must watch. If for no other reason than to experience an eloquent demonstratio…

Oh, it's not limited to the GDR. Switzerland in the eighties had the "Fichenaffäre" when it came out that the Swiss federal police did surveillance, and kept records on, about 10% of the population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal The Stasi is a fascinating example because the fall of the GDR was quick enough that they couldn't destroy most of the existing files and evidence and we have a relatively…

But it's quite a difference what happens with such 'fichen' info to a citizen/politician in Belarus and in Switzerland (or Germany or (probably) US).

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#33
post #27

"some services allow to downgrade from SSL gracefully" - Is this true? Does this ability not defeat the point of SSL? Why would this technology be built in? "Traditional wiretapping of phone networks was combined with GSM location services: thousands of people are now getting subpoenas and are dragged to police stations for being on streets in the vicinity of protests." - Phone towers keep location logs?

Most notably Gmail allowed downgrading to insecure connection until the China affair. There are other mail, messaging and social services people use there, some of them regional (e.g. Russian), where perception of security threats is low. Cell towers per se do not maintain any logs, it is just transceiver equipment connected to communication line. However telecom datacenters provide location services based on signal…

Criminals are smart enough to remove the battery, or not carry a cell phone during a major crime. So this mostly just enables the government and telecom companies to track law-abiding citizens.

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#34
post #10

This post should be required reading for anyone in West working on this technology. It's one thing to spend your life working on something of dubious benefit to humanity, it's entirely another to be directly, actively working against freedom and democracy globally. I know of one company that used to (maybe still do?) recruit aggressively at my university, who shall remain nameless for the sake of civility, and cannot…

Sadly, money motivates, and I can understand that. I still think that way about people who go to work on guided missiles and so forth. Perhaps it's a stretched simile, but I think it's like selling crack to kids to feed your family. I don't think it's that civil to omit the company's name, it's more like letting them win. I find it interesting and useful to learn which companies are behind shady activities, as done i…

I agree that not naming names is a bad idea. Strangely, this isn't the first time I've seen people avoid it on HN though. It doesn't sound like fear of reprisal in this instance, so what is the motivation?

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#35
post #33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most notably Gmail allowed downgrading to insecure connection until the China affair. There are other mail, messaging and social services people use there, some of them regional (e.g. Russian), where perception of security threats is low. Cell towers per se do not maintain any logs, it is just transceiver equipment connected to communication line. However telecom datacenters provide location services based on signal…

Criminals are smart enough to remove the battery, or not carry a cell phone during a major crime. So this mostly just enables the government and telecom companies to track law-abiding citizens.

Really? All criminals? I'm not a big fan of developments in surveillance, but it's crazy to think that some criminals won't be caught. The fact that they're petty criminals or benefits cheats makes the exercise of debatable value, but not for the reason you state.

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#36
post #13
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds logical, except what tools is Cisco specifically providing for "oppressive regimes’ censorship and e-terror campaigns"?

What do you think Cisco imagines networking equipment sold to oppressive governments is going to be used for? Edit: Jeeze borism , I mention Cisco because they are the ones with ads playing between Glee episodes. No, I’m sure they aren’t the “only ones.”

jeeze alanh, I'm sure you're on to something. I just don't think supporting oppressive regimes is it.

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#37
post #10

This post should be required reading for anyone in West working on this technology. It's one thing to spend your life working on something of dubious benefit to humanity, it's entirely another to be directly, actively working against freedom and democracy globally. I know of one company that used to (maybe still do?) recruit aggressively at my university, who shall remain nameless for the sake of civility, and cannot…

Sadly, money motivates, and I can understand that. I still think that way about people who go to work on guided missiles and so forth. Perhaps it's a stretched simile, but I think it's like selling crack to kids to feed your family. I don't think it's that civil to omit the company's name, it's more like letting them win. I find it interesting and useful to learn which companies are behind shady activities, as done i…

To be frank I listed those just as examples: no idea which of those have their equipment installed at Beltelecom, but they are commonly used in similar setups. There is little point in being accusatory: the surveillance features were developed as a part of legal compliance to their respective jurisdictions, then spread worldwide.

IMHO it is best to treat corporations as a force of nature, which however can be loosely directed by legislation. People staffing them might be all fine as individuals, but the requirements of market and governments can produce socially unwelcome outcomes.

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#38

Even if the Western countries did do as the OP proposes, it would simply result in a shift to non-Western suppliers such as the Chinese-owned Huawei.

It is a good point. I am aware of Huawei, although to my knowledge it is not used in Belarus to a noticeable extent. No doubt of course it could change if this hypothetic embargo is introduced.

There are however subtleties. The government and network operators use services of big system integrators in the region: Baltic states, Russia and Ukraine. The proximity of many vendors creates competitive situation, but if only Chinese vector is available, the only viable option would be Moscow-based Huawei suppliers. This is bound to create many problems with maintaining the existing infrastructure, and the vendor will be able to dictate the price, driving up the costs of enforcement and reducing its scope. If Ruissian dealerships are used, it also creates a dependency on Putin, relations with whom for Lukashenko have not been friendly at all lately.

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#39
post #32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it's not limited to the GDR. Switzerland in the eighties had the "Fichenaffäre" when it came out that the Swiss federal police did surveillance, and kept records on, about 10% of the population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal The Stasi is a fascinating example because the fall of the GDR was quick enough that they couldn't destroy most of the existing files and evidence and we have a relatively…

But it's quite a difference what happens with such 'fichen' info to a citizen/politician in Belarus and in Switzerland (or Germany or (probably) US).

There's definitely a large spectrum, between countries where the government uses violent means to suppress political oppostion (including but not limited to Belarus), over governments that deport people who met with a "person of interest" to third-party countries where they get tortured (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar) to countries where people just feel that preemptive intelligence gathering without concrete indications is more a cover-your-ass thing than a useful technique to fight crime.

Note that Lawful Interception (i.e. interfaces for government agencies to siphon off data from internet providers), as it was established by US and Europe, was never a focused effort to provide data for criminal investigations but started out with different groups of users in mind (i.e., espionnage and possibly other uses that the average citizen would find spooky).

And, as the article explains, the same technology that is used to guarantee Lawful Interception in Germany/US/other countries is used for political suppression in countries that would perhaps lack the technical sophistication but have a budget and corresponding sources for these. (Although I'm reasonably certain that companies in China and Russia will be happy to provide similar technology to potential buyers).

Re: Age of surveillance: the fish is rotting from its head

#40
It's a matter of fact that every vendor of telco equipment has to provide a lawful-interception interface when doing business at a serious scale (say, enabling services for >10k end-users). That holds true in countries with questionable political systems, but even more so in Central/Western Europe and especially in the US. It's really just how the technology is handled and used.

Regarding conspiracy theories: there's a popular saying in the telco/network industry, going like "Nobody has ever been fired for buying Cisco equipment". It's just a matter of taking personal risks for your CTO.

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