Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash • Hacker News Board

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#31

Post by throwaway4888 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

Throwaway account.

Local. TAed (USA nomenclature) 6 instances of 4 courses at top 5 AU Comp. Sci. university. Can confirm professorss of 3 courses wanted to fail at leats 1 student (one wanted to fail half a summer school class: approximately 75 students) and not a single student was ever failed because politics. Very few if any candidates for failure were local students.

Have many contacts, some with Ph.Ds, some who are lecturers in charge of courses now who at least reluctantly admit to this pattern.

Universities have indirect policies that penalise LiCs for failing students. Classic example: every failing students requires a report to management. Why did they fail? What is your proposal to prevent this type of failure from happening in the future?

When the reason is: how the hell did they get through the prerequisite course (presumably because of the same political pressure) you are met with: they met the prerequsites; you are applying unreasonable expetations on your students.

The entire reputation of the univiersity is for sale. How long can it last? If recent history is any guide, a long time. Let's find out.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#32

Post by phs318u » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #2

They didn't just trade free speech for cash. They traded their academic integrity. Talk to anyone who teaches at ANU/Monash/Melbourne and they'll tell you the same thing: most international Chinese students should fail by every metric there is, but there is tremendous pressure from the faculty to 'find marks' to get those students to scrape through and look the other way at their plagiarism and cheating. It's like th…

I taught a Masters level Enterprise Architecture unit at Swinburne University for a single semester and concluded that the system is designed to pass students. Specifically, my advice to employers and recruiters is to discount science and technology degrees by at least a single grade i.e. high distinction is really a distinction, distinction is really a credit, credit is really just a pass, and a pass is actually a fail.

A decade earlier I had graduated from a Masters and had such a great experience as a mature age student that I vowed I’d try my hand at teaching if the opportunity arose. When the opportunity came, I was excited, thinking I’d experience the same kind of mature, engaged and discursive sessions that I had as a student. Far from it. A handful of my students turned up consistently and at least made an effort. The rubric for the assessments were designed to make it almost impossible to fail. Out of my cohort (27 students), I would be comfortable hiring 2. There was one kid (that passed, barely) who I wouldn’t hire as a cleaner because he wouldn’t know which end of the broom to point at the ground unless someone told him.

It was incredibly disheartening and I can’t see myself ever doing that again.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#33

Post by phs318u » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 1:46 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #21

lwakefield wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I TAed a compulsory "Introduction to Engineering" class at USyd. The class itself was dead easy, the equivalent of the fizzbuzz interview question. The single assessment was "review an engineering article" where I caught 7 students (all international) plagiarizing. Not just borrowing a sentence or two, but lifting entire paragraphs and gluing them together with broken English. In one case a student had gone as far as…

> It was a huge disappointment to realize that this is how the "education system" works. Is there any man made system that isn't eventually run or at least strongly by financial interest? Genuine question.

I’d actually rephrase the question as, “is there any system that can’t be gamed?” i.e. a system immune to corruption? Impervious to bad faith intentions? I suspect the answer is no.

EDITED to fix a spelling mistake.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#34

Post by krn » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

holografix wrote: post #24

krn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no such guarantees – as far as I am aware – and as a former student I remember having a single Chinese classmate in my 4-year Computer Science degree program. After the Foundation Year, students of all nationalities were treated equally, and there were much more 1st year students from the US and the EU than from China.

Also had colleagues from Vietnam and China who attended the foundation year. It was clear to me they couldn’t read/write English to a high school level. They still got in

It might depend on how competitive the general admission process in a particular university is. I wouldn't be surprised, if 70% of the Britain's 100+ universities accepted all Chinese applicants. In the case of University St Andrews, it has plenty of more qualified applicants from North America who pay the same as Chinese and, therefore, can afford not to accept them.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#35

Post by wendyshu » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 2:25 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #21

lwakefield wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I TAed a compulsory "Introduction to Engineering" class at USyd. The class itself was dead easy, the equivalent of the fizzbuzz interview question. The single assessment was "review an engineering article" where I caught 7 students (all international) plagiarizing. Not just borrowing a sentence or two, but lifting entire paragraphs and gluing them together with broken English. In one case a student had gone as far as…

> It was a huge disappointment to realize that this is how the "education system" works. Is there any man made system that isn't eventually run or at least strongly by financial interest? Genuine question.

It's not clear that low standards actually are in the long term interest of the universities because it devalues the degree.

Thus it is important to expose this corruption far and wide so that people, e.g. employers, can be aware.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#36

Post by wendyshu » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #3

missosoup wrote: post #2

They didn't just trade free speech for cash. They traded their academic integrity. Talk to anyone who teaches at ANU/Monash/Melbourne and they'll tell you the same thing: most international Chinese students should fail by every metric there is, but there is tremendous pressure from the faculty to 'find marks' to get those students to scrape through and look the other way at their plagiarism and cheating. It's like th…

This isn’t a new problem, people were saying the same thing 20 years ago. And it isn’t accurate or fair to say it is a problem only with students of one single nationality, it’s not. It’s really the conflict of interest inherent in fee-paying international students - if you fail too many of them, they will leave and not come back and you lose out on future revenue from them - worsened by the fact that lowering Englis…

In my experience, among international students the Chinese students were actually not the worst cheaters. But in China there does seem to be a cultural tolerance for what we would consider cheating, from scientific misconduct to IP theft. The education system is usually what's blamed.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#37

Post by ksec » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

lwakefield wrote: post #11

missosoup wrote: post #2

They didn't just trade free speech for cash. They traded their academic integrity. Talk to anyone who teaches at ANU/Monash/Melbourne and they'll tell you the same thing: most international Chinese students should fail by every metric there is, but there is tremendous pressure from the faculty to 'find marks' to get those students to scrape through and look the other way at their plagiarism and cheating. It's like th…

I TAed a compulsory "Introduction to Engineering" class at USyd. The class itself was dead easy, the equivalent of the fizzbuzz interview question. The single assessment was "review an engineering article" where I caught 7 students (all international) plagiarizing. Not just borrowing a sentence or two, but lifting entire paragraphs and gluing them together with broken English. In one case a student had gone as far as…

I dont think plagiarism is just a Internaional Student thing, but they do take it to a whole different level.

I am sure as a Student, we have all see or even been part of plagiarism. The difference is that while others may look at your work, question why this is done this way, think for it ( hopefully ) yourself , and try to rewrite it in likely much worst adaptation of it. ( Since the level of understand is usually quite different ) With Copying in few places.

These International Students's plagiarism is basically simple copy and paste editing. It is so bad that even spelling mistakes are the same.

And when you question why these spelling mistake and grammatical mistakes are the same, you will likely get an answer that is because it is how we use the English languages, any further discussion on the subject will likely be countered as oppression, or racism.

The worst thing about it isn't actually the plagiarism itself. It is like Software pirating, a lot of people used to do it. ( BitTorrent, FTP, or if you are even older passing Disc with Code around ) But at least those who committed those wrong doing knew they were wrong. ( Or at least I hope ) These international student often does plagiarism with no sense of guilt or wrong doing, as it is the norm back in their home country. And if they get caught surely some donation would smooth things out. They will think why everyone does that same thing and how unlucky he or she was to get caught.

Now if you think back about all the issues, and instead of happening in a small place called University but in a much bigger world of business and Cooperate, you may see what the world right now are having lots of disagreement.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#38

Post by close04 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

wendyshu wrote: post #35

close04 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was a huge disappointment to realize that this is how the "education system" works. Is there any man made system that isn't eventually run or at least strongly by financial interest? Genuine question.

It's not clear that low standards actually are in the long term interest of the universities because it devalues the degree. Thus it is important to expose this corruption far and wide so that people, e.g. employers, can be aware.

I totally agree. The cynic in me was just surprised at the disappointment, not the reaction of outing them for what they do.

And to your first point, fewer and fewer people think for the long term. Perhaps because in an age where you want results now they will be judged by short term performance.

Also I noticed I'm missing an "influenced" in the comment above. Strongly influenced.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#39

Post by t34543 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

mmerlin wrote: post #13

lwakefield wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I TAed a compulsory "Introduction to Engineering" class at USyd. The class itself was dead easy, the equivalent of the fizzbuzz interview question. The single assessment was "review an engineering article" where I caught 7 students (all international) plagiarizing. Not just borrowing a sentence or two, but lifting entire paragraphs and gluing them together with broken English. In one case a student had gone as far as…

Yes! My partner eventually quit her job university lecturing because she was explicitly told time and time again she was never allowed to fail any of the international "full fee paying" students. If she lodged a fail mark she was raked over the coals and forced to change it as a passing mark. She was only allowed to give failing marks to Australians who pay approximately half the university fees compared to internati…

This should be a crime.

Re: Australian universities are accused of trading free speech for cash

#40

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

[deleted]