31–40 of 41 posts
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That isn't illegal or immoral.
True, but the theory behind character and fitness tests is that if he is desperate for money with which to repay his debts, he may be more susceptible to coercion, blackmail, and criminal elements.
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I would say it's immoral to ignore your debt obligations, yes. He went through a program that cost a lot of money, and which he promised to pay for over time. He's not a victim here. One can't always choose to do whatever they prefer, especially when in debt to others. There are many startup lawyers who bill >$400/hour, and I'm sure even the lowest paid lawyers who aren't public defenders make a fairly respectable sa…
Moral? No. He's has a contract with a financial company. Do you think they would behave morally if it meant giving up a dollar? Borrowing money from a friend is a moral obligation. That's not the same as signing a contract with a financial company that has buildings full of lawyers and accountants looking for ways to screw you.
To be moral, an action must preserve agency of those involved. When any action is performed, a reciprocal standard of action is established. (When I do something, I am willing that it is ok for you to do it to me.) If the action in question strips another person of their moral agency, the actor initiating the action is also accepting that it is permissible to be stripped of their own agency. This is where the contradiction exists. If we authorize the removal of anothers agency, then we are authorizing the removal of our own agency as well, and thus our ability to determine morality.
Cliffs Notes: If you screw someone over, you're authorizing others to screw you over. This perverts your sense of morality and you are no longer sufficiently able to decide morality.
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Moral? No. He's has a contract with a financial company. Do you think they would behave morally if it meant giving up a dollar? Borrowing money from a friend is a moral obligation. That's not the same as signing a contract with a financial company that has buildings full of lawyers and accountants looking for ways to screw you.
Unless you were coerced or the contract came into being in some other illegitimate way, you certainly have a moral obligation to fulfill any promise you make, contract or otherwise. To be moral, an action must preserve agency of those involved. When any action is performed, a reciprocal standard of action is established. (When I do something, I am willing that it is ok for you to do it to me.) If the action in questi…
Morals are not absolute. Trying to apply your own expectations to others has the ability to cause a lot of grief in life.
Having paid off about $35k in student loans 2.5 years after I graduated, I do feel sympathy. It's easy to take on loans when it's just numbers on a piece of paper and one may not have earned much money up until that point. I only realised the hindrance of debt after taking it on. It can be a very tough lesson for people to learn if they have taken on too much and do not have prior experience on which to base their decisions.
Really? Is this a location issue? Because to me that sounds like the entitled moaning of a 10 year-old. The real world does not and should not care what YOU feel like doing. People are expected to behave like adults and to uphold their obligations. It's YOUR job to figure out a way to do what you love while successfully doing that - not everyone else's.
On the other hand, please correct me if I'm missing some important issue here.
So, I guess the core conclusion of this article should be this: What does not paying off student loans have to do with your ability to be a lawyer?
Someone with a large amount of debt is more likely, in the bar association's eyes, to seek illegal or questionably legal means of repaying it. In this case, there's also the fact that the lawyer in question tried to file bankruptcy to lower his student loan payments, and to discharge some of his credit card debt. He also decided to take on a low-paying job as a public defender -- admirable, perhaps, but in his financ…
The guy chose NOT to take on a job as a public defender. He took a job as a part-time public defender, paid hourly wages, instead of pursuing available full time positions in the public defender's office.
The distinction is meaningful because the federal government repays all student loans for lawyers who work in the public/non-profit sectors for 10 years in full-time positions. This is known as loan forbearance. However, it does not apply to lawyers who take on part-time jobs.
For people who don't understand, they are denying him admission based on his decision to stay on at the public defender instead of quiting and finding likely nonexistent higher paying work to service his exorbitant albeit average student loan debt. This is completely unacceptable micromanaging by the Ohio Supreme Court here and if I were the guy I would keep fighting this. Character and fitness deals merely with a pe…
Lawyers working for the public/non-profit sectors are granted loan forbearance of all student debt (including student debt not related to law school) after working full-time for 10 years for government agencies/non-profits/military. However, part-time work does not apply to this 10-year period. So, he would not have needed to change jobs, only his commitment to his current job.
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I would say it's immoral to ignore your debt obligations, yes. He went through a program that cost a lot of money, and which he promised to pay for over time. He's not a victim here. One can't always choose to do whatever they prefer, especially when in debt to others. There are many startup lawyers who bill >$400/hour, and I'm sure even the lowest paid lawyers who aren't public defenders make a fairly respectable sa…
But the catch 22 is that he can't work as a lawyer until he passes the bar...
Just because you go for school for something doesn't mean your guaranteed a job doing just that. You go to school to learn something. Usually you use that knowledge to advance your career (or start one). However, it's unfair to demand that just because you went to school to become a lawyer (or doctor, or whatever) that people must hire you into that position.
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Unless you were coerced or the contract came into being in some other illegitimate way, you certainly have a moral obligation to fulfill any promise you make, contract or otherwise. To be moral, an action must preserve agency of those involved. When any action is performed, a reciprocal standard of action is established. (When I do something, I am willing that it is ok for you to do it to me.) If the action in questi…
> you certainly have a moral obligation to fulfill any promise you make Morals are not absolute. Trying to apply your own expectations to others has the ability to cause a lot of grief in life. Having paid off about $35k in student loans 2.5 years after I graduated, I do feel sympathy. It's easy to take on loans when it's just numbers on a piece of paper and one may not have earned much money up until that point. I o…
This is definitely an ethical issue, which is (yes, yes, it's ironic) a cornerstone of Bar admission and the ability to practice law. Many disbarments are the result of ethical misconduct.
As an aside, he would also not be able to get a top secret security clearance, and would also be unlikely to get a secret clearance unless he had particularly amazing skills.
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But the catch 22 is that he can't work as a lawyer until he passes the bar...
But he can do other things that will help him pay of his debt until he passes the bar and then work as a lawyer. Just because you go for school for something doesn't mean your guaranteed a job doing just that. You go to school to learn something. Usually you use that knowledge to advance your career (or start one). However, it's unfair to demand that just because you went to school to become a lawyer (or doctor, or w…
Furthermore, the student isn't demanding that anybody hire him as an attorney- just that they grant him the legal credentials needed to be eligible to be hired as an attorney. There's a big difference.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would say it's immoral to ignore your debt obligations, yes. He went through a program that cost a lot of money, and which he promised to pay for over time. He's not a victim here. One can't always choose to do whatever they prefer, especially when in debt to others. There are many startup lawyers who bill >$400/hour, and I'm sure even the lowest paid lawyers who aren't public defenders make a fairly respectable sa…
But the catch 22 is that he can't work as a lawyer until he passes the bar...