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A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

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Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#31

Post by foobar_ »

eesmith wrote: post #29
foobar_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness? There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain. I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words. Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are vi…

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who disli…

> Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard.

Sexual advances? I doubt it. Women confuse friendly behaviour with sexual intent all the time. Men do too. Friedly behaviour from ugly people is considered creepy. Most ugly people learn to not do that ... but Autistic people present a problem in this regard.

> Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position.

It takes two google searches to find feminist popes who support paedophilia and incest. Let's ruin their entire careers, dreams, ambitions and piss on their graves if they are dead.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#32

Post by foobar_ »

zozbot234 wrote: post #30
eesmith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who disli…

> Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never ha…

There was also this "hot inmate" meme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Meeks

Speaks volumes in how pretty people are treated vs how fat and ugly people are treated.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#33

Post by eesmith »

foobar_ wrote: post #31
eesmith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who disli…

> Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard. Sexual advances? I doubt it. Women confuse friendly behaviour with sexual intent all the time. Men do too. Friedly behaviour from ugly people is considered creepy. Most ugly people learn to not do that ... but Autistic people present a problem in this regard. > Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have…

Do I take it that you don't want to address any of the other issues I raised?

If you really think that "creep" means 'fat and ugly', then why do you think Stallman is ugly while I don't? A lot of people are fat and ugly. Most aren't considered creeps. You called out Bieber's creeping behavior, so what's your definition of creep that doesn't involve being fat and ugly?

Congratulations on your doubt. What evidence would change your mind?

Are you one of those men who like to leer at attractive women's breasts, give wolf whistles to women walking by, and tell women 'they need to smile more; they are too pretty to be sad", and say it's meant as friendly compliment?

Because if so, you are one of the misogynist problems in this world.

If not, then there's plenty of examples right there of women who do not consider those to be 'friendly behavior' even when the men regard it as such.

Again, "Autistic people" is not an excuse for 30 years of continued behavior in Stallman's position. The vast majority of autistic people are not sexual creeps.

So what? It takes two Google searches to find Nazis living in Antarctica, Flat Earthers, and Moon Landing denialists. As far as I can tell, there have been no pope which advocated for the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes, and especially not at the time of Galileo.

FWIW, I looked and didn't find what you were talking about.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#34

Post by eesmith »

foobar_ wrote: post #32
zozbot234 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never ha…

There was also this "hot inmate" meme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Meeks Speaks volumes in how pretty people are treated vs how fat and ugly people are treated.

Or, Jethro Tull's "Fat Man":

  Don't want to be a fat man
  People would think that I was just good fun, man
  Would rather be a thin man
  I am so glad to go on being one, man

  Too much to carry around with you
  No chance of finding a woman, who
  Will love you in the morning and all the nighttime too

  Don't want to be a fat man
  Have not the patience to ignore all that
  Hate to admit to myself
  I thought my problems came from being fat
But there's no evidence that "fat and ugly" = "creep".

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#35

Post by eesmith »

zozbot234 wrote: post #30
eesmith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who disli…

> Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never ha…

If '"Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder' then there should be far more examples of women calling Stallman 'fat and ugly' than there are of calling him a creep.

What limited examples I found of calling Stallman 'fat' appear to come from males who also use, eg, racial or ethnic slurs against him.

The observed evidence therefore is not that there is a single ladder, but that there are multiple ladders, and "creep" is a different ladder than "fat" is a different ladder than "ugly".

Let's also not pretend that Stallman didn't have a decades long history of behavior which most other people of similar weight and beauty don't have.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#36

Post by foobar_ »

eesmith wrote: post #33
foobar_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard. Sexual advances? I doubt it. Women confuse friendly behaviour with sexual intent all the time. Men do too. Friedly behaviour from ugly people is considered creepy. Most ugly people learn to not do that ... but Autistic people present a problem in this regard. > Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have…

Do I take it that you don't want to address any of the other issues I raised? If you really think that "creep" means 'fat and ugly', then why do you think Stallman is ugly while I don't? A lot of people are fat and ugly. Most aren't considered creeps. You called out Bieber's creeping behavior, so what's your definition of creep that doesn't involve being fat and ugly? Congratulations on your doubt. What evidence woul…

Ah ... you must be on the spectrum. I'm not a misogynist. I don't care about a majority of the men and women. I just don't pretend to be a humanist.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#37

Post by eesmith »

foobar_ wrote: post #36
eesmith wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I take it that you don't want to address any of the other issues I raised? If you really think that "creep" means 'fat and ugly', then why do you think Stallman is ugly while I don't? A lot of people are fat and ugly. Most aren't considered creeps. You called out Bieber's creeping behavior, so what's your definition of creep that doesn't involve being fat and ugly? Congratulations on your doubt. What evidence woul…

Ah ... you must be on the spectrum. I'm not a misogynist. I don't care about a majority of the men and women. I just don't pretend to be a humanist.

"then there's plenty of examples right there of women who do not consider those to be 'friendly behavior' even when the men regard it as such."

Which undermines your earlier thesis.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#38

Post by foobar_ »

eesmith wrote: post #37
foobar_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah ... you must be on the spectrum. I'm not a misogynist. I don't care about a majority of the men and women. I just don't pretend to be a humanist.

"then there's plenty of examples right there of women who do not consider those to be 'friendly behavior' even when the men regard it as such." Which undermines your earlier thesis.

It's right there ...

https://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/simone-de-beauvoir-a-n...

My thesis is fairly simple.

1. Autism, Asperger types have a hard time interpreting sarcasm, body language, talking behind people's back while keeping a tactful appearance, reading the emotional atmosphere of the room and verbal communication which is not literal. These are called social skills and women are better at it. It takes a whole lotta time for Autistic types to develop these.

2. Ugly people will be considered creepy if they flirt, the thesis of the OP. It is very uncomfortable to watch Autistic types flirt and they are most likely to not understand body language cues.

3. You don't have to give them a pass at being dicks and lacking manners, but again you have to tell them in their own language ... but expect whole lotta whys. Silencing people, bullying them for their independent thoughts is a pathetic solution to a shitty problem.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#39

Post by speedplane »

geofft wrote: post #2

For some context, Thomas Bushnell was the chief architect of the HURD from its founding in 1990 until 2003. He understands the FSF and Richard Stallman as well as anyone does.

> Thomas Bushnell was the chief architect of the HURD from its founding in 1990 until 2003. He understands the FSF and Richard Stallman as well as anyone does.

I invited Stallman to speak at my law school, along with other high ranking FSF members. I may have worshiped him at the time, but many of the tight-laced budding lawyers in attendance thought he was weird, mildly anti-social, and did not understand his relevance. Developers "got it", but most law students didn't connect. The traits that endeared him to the software community cut against him when trying to reach a broader audience.

Even though "open source" is everywhere right now, the GPL and true sharing of code is not. The Apache license, which allows you to do what you want and not share any changes, rules the day. I wonder if a more mainstream leader, who was just as committed to copyleft software would have been more effective.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#40

Post by speedplane »

jeegsy wrote: post #25
NateEag wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you read the articles linked in the posted link, and also this story by Steven Levy: https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of... Threatening to kill yourself if someone won't go out with you is terrible behavior at a bunch of levels: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... (search for "When I was a teen freshman"). It's clear that Stallman was not just "trying to…

"The fall of the clueless nerd" indeed. The headline in the wired story linked triggers the hell out of me. I suppose we have come full circle, Nerds suck, then they were cool and now they have been consigned back to uncool again. For the life of me, based on the snippets i've seen regarding his interactions with women, the only advice I can give him and ppl like him if they could have a do-over is stay away from wom…

> the only advice I can give him and ppl like him if they could have a do-over is stay away from women period

Stallman could have been a quirky, uncompromising, and passionate personality and still treat women like equals. Being a "genius" is not a good (or even sensical) excuse to treat people poorly. If anything, it shows you're not really a genius after all.

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