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New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

vox.com

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#31
post #9
post #2

Nukes makes it sound like they want nuclear missiles but this is about nuclear energy...

Yes... is this an American phrasing? I (from UK) would definitely write this as "renewables and nuclear".

No. This is Vox phrasing to drum up controversy. They do this crap all the time.

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said many times that nuclear power needs better marketing. Drop nuclear from the name like the MRI manufacturers did. It's no longer a nuclear plant, it's a traveling wave plant, or a molten salt plant- more descriptive and also separates the concept in people's minds from a Simpsons-esque nuclear plant.

"Krypton production facility"? The mascot could be a neon light.

Those who forget the story of Superman's origin are doomed to repeat it.

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#33
post #3

Unpopular opinion (though getting less so): the politicization of nuclear energy in the 1960s and the resulting lack of investment & R&D advances may go down as one of the biggest blunders in human history. Even with some modest ongoing investments, we'd have designs that are FAR safer than systems currently in operation.

> Even with some modest ongoing investments, we'd have designs that are FAR safer than systems currently in operation. Why would you think that? The problem with nuclear is that we are playing with significant tail risks, which are the hardest to engineer around. Catastrophic failures can have tremendous consequences, and in a sufficiently complex design there will be possibilities of catastrophic failures. While the…

> I had repeatedly been told that a modern (post-Chernobyl) reactor was simply incapable of these failures modes

Fukushima was commissioned in 1971. Chernobyl happened in 1986. I would not call the design a "post-Chernobyl" reactor.

I can recommend the section on the wiki page for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_Nuclear_Powe...

> I had even, ignorantly, parroted back

I think this is probably the root cause ;)

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#34
post #29
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it seems like a massive wasted opportunity, but the most compelling argument I've heard against nuclear power is that it creates a vulnerability. If a nuclear power plant in New York City had been successfully attacked 18 years ago, what would the damage have been? We may need to focus on the security of existing infrastructure before we begin to build the next generation of power.

Step 1: Don't build nuclear plants in the middle of major cities. Step 2: Build extremely strong containment. Not that hard, just keep pouring concrete. Step 3: Be at peace with the fact that even the worst nuclear incident, while harrowing, would not be the end of the world - which fossil fuels literally are . And it's not like fossil fuels are immune to massive eco-disaster failure points. Deepwater Horizon was far…

I agree with all these solutions, and I don't mean to imply that this is an unsurpassable problem, only that our existing security measures for infrastructure are already falling behind as we increasingly rely on them, and these compounding vulnerabilities put pressure on regulators to slow down development.

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#35
post #6
post #3

Unpopular opinion (though getting less so): the politicization of nuclear energy in the 1960s and the resulting lack of investment & R&D advances may go down as one of the biggest blunders in human history. Even with some modest ongoing investments, we'd have designs that are FAR safer than systems currently in operation.

People got scared (somewhat legitimately) and we regulated them to death. It became so risky and so expensive to invest in nuclear that nobody, not even the big companies with nuclear divisions like GE did it. People talk about failures of the market all the time, and there are many. This was one of the failures of regulation. I think we're starting to see a small revival here finally, but is it too late? Renewables…

I don't think this can be considered a failure of regulation; that the regulation stopped short of an outright ban is much more of a failure of regulation in some ways.

The tail risks involved in nuclear power are just too high. It's not a question of laymen misunderstanding or thinking that radiation is magic or being scared by the specter of Chernobyl.

If there's anything that Fukushima should have taught us, it's that we underestimate the risk that bad things can happen with nuclear, and we overestimate our ability to engineer around those things.

I think it's increasingly likely that in the far future, when energy needs are no longer the bottleneck for progress, we'll look back on the idea of using nuclear fission as a power source as a laughably dangerous concept; on par with using x-rays for shoe sizing [1] or an atomic powered car [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#36
post #27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was mostly a failure of human psychology. The over-regulation was simply a manifestation of that - democracy working perfectly. Blunder 1: war. We dropped a nuclear bomb before we ever made a nuclear power plant. Nuclear became inextricably linked with sickness and death instead of power and prosperity. Blunder 2: broken heuristic risk assessment. Radiation is scary because it's "spooky" - it's undetectabl…

Not sure I agree with #1. Nuclear power had a super utopian vibe going for a good couple of decades. Nuclear power plant orders only started to decline in the early 70's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Age

I don't think you can entirely discount the effects of 20 years of Cold War existential threat, accompanied by duck-and-cover videos and the like. People were terrified and fascinated by nuclear technology - this is the era of Godzilla, and of mutant superheroes. Yes, there was a utopian vibe as well, courtesy of a concerted propaganda campaign [1] - but when the eco-movement kicked off in the 70s, nuclear was right in the firing line. That didn't spring from nowhere - it was decades of accumulated fear finding an expression.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atoms_for_Peace

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#37
This is old. Cuomo is forcing Entergy to close Indian Point 2 and 3 in 2020/2021, which were the only financially viable plants mentioned in the article.

The governor's desire to prolong their relicensing process made it more cost effective for Entergy to just agree to close them in 4/5 years, which is a shame because nuclear plants are all about the sunk capital costs.

Re: New York state wants both renewables and nuclear energy (2016)

#40
post #12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People got scared (somewhat legitimately) and we regulated them to death. It became so risky and so expensive to invest in nuclear that nobody, not even the big companies with nuclear divisions like GE did it. People talk about failures of the market all the time, and there are many. This was one of the failures of regulation. I think we're starting to see a small revival here finally, but is it too late? Renewables…

> People got scared (somewhat legitimately) Not really. The reality is that most fear is based on totally false believes that exist in popular culture. If people actually understood the real level of dangers they would not nearly be as scared.

The risk is real, but as you say is smaller than other risks we don't even think about, like the people coal has killed with pollution and will still kill through climate change upheaval.
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