This shifting blame to the cloud is a bad trend. It's the driver's fault.
... but the driver was the car...
heh. You know it's a pre-programmed computer on wheels. It has no self.
Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
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Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#32This shifting blame to the cloud is a bad trend. It's the driver's fault.
... but the driver was the car...
Not legally. Has Autopilot got a driver’s license?
The fact that software was in control at the time is no more relevant than the guy who asks his twelve year old son in the passenger seat to reach over and steer while the driver rifles through stuff on the back seat.
Responsibility for an accident doesn’t ever rest with whatever entity is steering the car, it rests with the licensed driver. (Which could be software, when it gets good enough.) Anything else is madness.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…
> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?
Airplanes are 10km up when cruising. Almost any error a pilot makes has minutes of time to be corrected. Contrast with 1 second while driving. Take off and landing are far more involved and take 15 minutes each (approx).
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is certainly okay when the rates at which these things happen is lower than the rates at which non-self driving cars have accidents. A 0% accident rate is unrealistic and unfair.
> It is certainly okay when the rates at which these things happen is lower than the rates at which non-self driving cars have accidents. Eh, Tesla likes to point to this statistic every time the safety of Autopilot comes into question, but it is an apples-to-oranges comparison because AP is only used on highways where traffic incidents are already far less common per mile driven. Detailed data is hard to come by, bu…
it is an apples-to-oranges comparison because AP is only used on highways where traffic incidents are already far less common per mile driven.
True, and that kind of flawed argument bugs me. However, there is also data that showed that accident rates went down significantly on the same cars after Tesla first enabled autopilot via a software update. This is much more compelling to me; if the same people driving the same cars in the same areas became less likely to get into an accident as soon as autopilot became available, then I don't see how you can really argue that the feature is not beneficial to safety.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#35> The vehicle’s design “permitted the driver to disengage from the driving task” Which vehicle's design does not permit a driver to disengage from the driving task?
When those vehicles rename "cruise control" to "autopilot" we can probably have a discussion.
Tesla did this to themselves. They had a million options on what to call the feature and they chose one that describes it as driving itself. It's as bad or worse than ISPs with "unlimited" plans that are limited. Words have meaning, and tossing them around like they don't is dangerous.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
... but the driver was the car...
Not legally. Has Autopilot got a driver’s license? The fact that software was in control at the time is no more relevant than the guy who asks his twelve year old son in the passenger seat to reach over and steer while the driver rifles through stuff on the back seat. Responsibility for an accident doesn’t ever rest with whatever entity is steering the car, it rests with the licensed driver. (Which could be software,…
This report is about determining what features are inherently dangerous. It is very relevant that autopilot can't detect vehicles.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#37Figure 7 depicts the movement of the Tesla and the two lead vehicles in the last 15 seconds before the crash. In the left panel—covering 15 to 8 seconds before impact—the Tesla is accelerating from 9 to 18 mph while following a lead vehicle (red car) at 30 to 46 feet.In the middle panel—covering 7 to 4 seconds before impact—the Tesla is traveling at a constant 21 mph while following a lead vehicle (green car) at a di…
It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding.
What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost.
I really think folks don’t realize how critical all of our human understanding is to driving.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…
> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?
They take shifts.
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not legally. Has Autopilot got a driver’s license? The fact that software was in control at the time is no more relevant than the guy who asks his twelve year old son in the passenger seat to reach over and steer while the driver rifles through stuff on the back seat. Responsibility for an accident doesn’t ever rest with whatever entity is steering the car, it rests with the licensed driver. (Which could be software,…
This report is about determining what features are inherently dangerous. It is very relevant that autopilot can't detect vehicles.
A common marketing trick is to steal a word by naming your product it. Suddenly you have Autopilot when it's really "Autopilot". Or better "Tesla Autopilot".
Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405
#40The driver was found using his phone, over-relied on the autopilot system, and lied about what he was doing when being questioned. Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development.
If you create a system that by design will cause the driver to lose focus, you are responsible for the driver losing focus. Saying “we told the users that they must pay attention while they are not driving”, or “we told them that the system called ‘auto-pilot’ is not actually able to autopilot the car”, and “we advertised the car’s self driving ability but had documentation saying it doesn’t actually have that abilit…
My experience with autopilot isn't that I lose focus as much as I focus on something else. Instead of focusing on keeping in my lane, not going too fast, and if the car ahead of me is braking, I'm focusing on the road ahead -- is there construction coming up? Is there debris in the road? Is there a wall ahead that gets too close to the road? Is there anything weird up ahead that needs attention? You learn what AP can and can't handle and you keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary, which on long road trips is significantly less fatiguing and probably safer.