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Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

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31–40 of 191 posts

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#31
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd is a perfectly fine init system. The problem is that it comes bundled with a whole bunch of other tools for handling networks, cron, ntp, etc which really ought to be separate projects. By bundling them with the successful init system they're not exposed to the usual Darwinian selection processes that shake out the best free software.

They're separate binaries, and can be easily unbundled. That they're part of the same project is actually a win for me, it helps to make the various components work well together. Also there is a common thread or philosophy in how things are built, making learning easier. In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is c…

> In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is concerned.

I've had this thought as well. The BSDs aren't afraid to go off and do their own thing, and it works for them. I feel like generally the Linux ecosystem is held back by reluctance to break free from ancient conventions and standards like POSIX and such, so I come into this systemd debate skeptical of arguments that it's not "the UNIX way" or that it's too Linux-specific or that it's stepping on other projects' toes, or that it's not the way things have been done before.

The systemd critics have legitimate criticisms which can be addressed through evolutionary improvements, but I don't buy the philosophical arguments that systemd is fundamentally flawed.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#32
post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

> It's complex because it does a complex work Hence it's pointless because it doesn't make things any simpler. All it does is making things monolithic and wrapping concepts that are perfectly fine by themselves, forcing third-party software to write to systemd's APIs. > Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. "Managing systems" is not what is meant by "doing one thing, and doing it we…

As an end user, meaning a web app developer, I actually like systemd a lot. I perceive the software quality to be good enough. I've used it in production since 2014 and encountered zero bugs. It does seem to me to be vastly simpler compared to the old way of doing things.

I don't really feel strongly either way. I'll be pretty sad if Debian and redhat diverge.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#33
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd is a perfectly fine init system. The problem is that it comes bundled with a whole bunch of other tools for handling networks, cron, ntp, etc which really ought to be separate projects. By bundling them with the successful init system they're not exposed to the usual Darwinian selection processes that shake out the best free software.

They're separate binaries, and can be easily unbundled. That they're part of the same project is actually a win for me, it helps to make the various components work well together. Also there is a common thread or philosophy in how things are built, making learning easier. In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is c…

> They're separate binaries, and can be easily unbundled.

No, they can't. The fact that they're compiled into separate binaries doesn't mean they're independent - they're completely dependent.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#34
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn’t. Firstly: they weren’t the originators of systemd, they simply hired the guy who first developed it to continue developing it. Secondly: it: being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it and not be due anything to Red Hat. Thirdly, it isn’t extinguishing anything as a business strategy ; it’s just out-competing alternatives in the “mindshare” arena.

Without having much opinion on systemd, hiring the developer sounds very much like “embrace”. Continuing developing sounds like “extend”.

By that logic, every company that funds open source development is eeeeeevil.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

Even if you grant some sinister motive on the part of Red Hat (which I do not), the analogy doesn't work. EEE requires some existing technology to embrace. Lennart Poettering built systemd from the ground up. And everything is open-source and done with the collaboration of the community anyway.

When upstream packages depend on systemd then other distros are forced to adopt systemd, which is a moving target. The goal is for everyone to just use RHEL to avoid the hassle.

E.g. Debian went systemd because they don’t have the resources to fix everything they get from upstream that requires it.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're separate binaries, and can be easily unbundled. That they're part of the same project is actually a win for me, it helps to make the various components work well together. Also there is a common thread or philosophy in how things are built, making learning easier. In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is c…

> In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is concerned. I've had this thought as well. The BSDs aren't afraid to go off and do their own thing, and it works for them. I feel like generally the Linux ecosystem is held back by reluctance to break free from ancient conventions and standards like POSIX and such, so I co…

"Linux ecosystem is held back", compared to BSDs'? what world are you on?

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you grant some sinister motive on the part of Red Hat (which I do not), the analogy doesn't work. EEE requires some existing technology to embrace. Lennart Poettering built systemd from the ground up. And everything is open-source and done with the collaboration of the community anyway.

When upstream packages depend on systemd then other distros are forced to adopt systemd, which is a moving target. The goal is for everyone to just use RHEL to avoid the hassle. E.g. Debian went systemd because they don’t have the resources to fix everything they get from upstream that requires it.

If that's the case, the strategy isn't working. The big-name non-RHEL distributions (Fedora/SUSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) all run systemd by default. Users would have no reason to think that Red Hat would help them avoid any systemd-related hassle.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#39
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

No it isn’t. Firstly: they weren’t the originators of systemd, they simply hired the guy who first developed it to continue developing it. Secondly: it: being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it and not be due anything to Red Hat. Thirdly, it isn’t extinguishing anything as a business strategy ; it’s just out-competing alternatives in the “mindshare” arena.

While not arguing IBM/RH is actually doing EEE.

> they simply hired the guy who first developed it

If so, they aren't the originators, but it doesn't preclude them from using systemd to do EEE.

> open source and GPL, anybody can fork

While being OSS and GPL limits attainable power, controlling the development on ever changing software with increasing scope does yield quite significant power and makes practical forking quite hard if you with to remain compatible.

> out-competing alternatives

I remember distributions being forced to use systemd due to software dependencies and ensuing debacles. I think this might be classified as extend and extinguish.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#40
post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

The best way to see systemd is simply as the userspace part of the Linux kernel, with a similar monolithic but modular design.
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