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Is learning to program inherently hard?

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Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#31

Post by jdminhbg »

jedsmith wrote: post #28
jleyank wrote: post #24

I found programming WAY easier than learning the guitar. 'Course I was 13 at the time, and the latter involved "practice". Practice was boring, yet learning things like ASCII, how to toggle a PDP-8, Hammurabi, ... Those weren't "practice". As everybody knows, doing what you like to do is easy. Doing other stuff is not.

> Practice was boring, yet learning things like ASCII, how to toggle a PDP-8, Hammurabi, ... Those weren't "practice". I get better at programming as I do it more. I think you're correct that individual knowledge points aren't "practice" per se, but practice definitely factors into skill over time. Just like I imagine it does with the guitar.

I think the essential difference is that practicing the guitar involves doing the same thing over and over until you get it right/fast, whereas practicing programming involves doing different things.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#32

Post by jleyank »

jdminhbg wrote: post #31
jedsmith wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Practice was boring, yet learning things like ASCII, how to toggle a PDP-8, Hammurabi, ... Those weren't "practice". I get better at programming as I do it more. I think you're correct that individual knowledge points aren't "practice" per se, but practice definitely factors into skill over time. Just like I imagine it does with the guitar.

I think the essential difference is that practicing the guitar involves doing the same thing over and over until you get it right/fast, whereas practicing programming involves doing different things.

I would think to a guitarist, what we do when programming is "all the same". Just like we think guitar practice is all the same. No, the guitarist would say, there's real differences between flamenco, jazz, prog rock, ...

If you support the 10K hours argument, some things are willingly done and others less so. I make coin with programming, yet people pay to see guitarists.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#33

Post by lwat »

kiba wrote: post #10
cletus wrote: post #9

Programming is like most things in life: hard if you have no affinity for it, much easier (but not necessarily easy) if you do. I see programming to have a lot of parallels with being a combination mechanic and automotive engineer. A mechanic fixes cars, diagnoses problems, tunes a car and so on. It's really a lot like (code) reading, testing, debugging and maintenance--all key programming skills. An automotive engin…

What is affinity? I just learned programming just like how I learn the artistic craft: Through sheer practice. (Now, ironically, I actually make more money doing my lesser skill in art than I do in programming)

You need to have a real interest in the subject. Anyone that wants to learn programming can do so but you can't take a random person and force them to learn in and get good results.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#34

Post by chronomex »

Vivtek wrote: post #26
cletus wrote: post #9

Programming is like most things in life: hard if you have no affinity for it, much easier (but not necessarily easy) if you do. I see programming to have a lot of parallels with being a combination mechanic and automotive engineer. A mechanic fixes cars, diagnoses problems, tunes a car and so on. It's really a lot like (code) reading, testing, debugging and maintenance--all key programming skills. An automotive engin…

I would be useless as a mechanic. 90% of being a good mechanic, just as 90% of being a good programmer or a good doctor, is debugging. If you're a good debugger, you can damn well do anything .

A good portion of the remainder is not being afraid to make things worse temporarily, I'd say.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#35

Post by achiral »

stevenbedrick wrote: post #21

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. In my experience, the problems that students have ultimately fall into one of two categories: 1. Learning to think algorithmically; 2. Abstraction. What do I mean by these? By "thinking algorithmically," I really mean "taking a large problem and breaking it up into an ordered series of steps or sub-problems." This is surprisingly hard for a lot of people, in part because th…

I'd honestly go ahead and bite the bullet and say these students are lacking in an important intellectual capacity if they can't handle that extremely modest amount of abstraction. If they are successful it is probably due to a solid work ethic.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#36

Post by chopsueyar »

Vivtek wrote: post #26
cletus wrote: post #9

Programming is like most things in life: hard if you have no affinity for it, much easier (but not necessarily easy) if you do. I see programming to have a lot of parallels with being a combination mechanic and automotive engineer. A mechanic fixes cars, diagnoses problems, tunes a car and so on. It's really a lot like (code) reading, testing, debugging and maintenance--all key programming skills. An automotive engin…

I would be useless as a mechanic. 90% of being a good mechanic, just as 90% of being a good programmer or a good doctor, is debugging. If you're a good debugger, you can damn well do anything .

As a mechanic, you also need good grip strength and not be afraid to bloody your knuckles.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#37

Post by chopsueyar »

aridiculous wrote: post #22
51Cards wrote: post #2

Is learning to ride a unicycle hard? It is if you don't have inherently good balance. Is linguistics hard? It is if you don't have a good associative memory. Is math hard? Is carving a wooden bowl on a lathe hard? Is pro-Hockey hard? Is sculpture hard? Metal working? Philosophy? Music? The percentages of people with specific inherent skill sets will vary widely in society, so 'hard' is best defined as 'requiring a sk…

Forgive the pedantry, but riding a unicycle is not difficult even if you have bad motor coordination. I'm fairly janky in terms of my motor skills and learned to unicycle in a week or two. It consists of hacks, concepts, and fundamentals just like most seemingly complex tasks.

But what if you don't have legs?

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#38

Post by chopsueyar »

Eliezer wrote: post #7

Learned to program when I was around five or six years old, by picking up a book of prewritten programs in BASIC for a Sinclair ZX80 (or ZX81? not sure), figuring out how they worked and writing my own. I am not sure what the term "inherently hard" is supposed to mean in this context.

I assume as a 5 or 6 year old, you did not have as many responsibilities or obligations as an older person. Perhaps if you had not learned until later in life, the learning curve would be steeper?

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#39

Post by chopsueyar »

jleyank wrote: post #32
jdminhbg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the essential difference is that practicing the guitar involves doing the same thing over and over until you get it right/fast, whereas practicing programming involves doing different things.

I would think to a guitarist, what we do when programming is "all the same". Just like we think guitar practice is all the same. No, the guitarist would say, there's real differences between flamenco, jazz, prog rock, ... If you support the 10K hours argument, some things are willingly done and others less so. I make coin with programming, yet people pay to see guitarists.

It is all 1's and 0's.

Re: Is learning to program inherently hard?

#40

Post by devilant »

Eliezer wrote: post #7

Learned to program when I was around five or six years old, by picking up a book of prewritten programs in BASIC for a Sinclair ZX80 (or ZX81? not sure), figuring out how they worked and writing my own. I am not sure what the term "inherently hard" is supposed to mean in this context.

Come on. I think the context is pretty clear. If a group of novelists are discussing how writing is inherently hard, would you let them know you don't understand how they can say writing is hard? After all, you learned how to write when you were five or six by picking up "See Spot Run" and then stringing together some nouns and verbs of your own...
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