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Recap of the `funding` experiment

feross.org

31–40 of 72 posts

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#31
A perspective which may not have been considered yet is exactly what kind of value is being created in these open source projects: namely, value which is easily captured by SaaS startups. Is it really surprising that that is used by to make without giving anything back?

End-user open source software doesn't face this problem as often and I would wager is a lot more important for creating an open source ecosystem which serves people rather than serving techbro startups. I'm not saying that libraries are unimportant, but rather that there's not a lot of use-cases for JavaScript layout library #1,480 other than making some web app for some techbro startup, which is pretty far removed from anything useful to end-source. If you write projects which enslave yourself to techbro startups, don't be surprised when you end up enslaved by techbro startups.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#32
post #9

In my mind this is a problem that must be solved at a packagemanager level, where its both possible to dynamically allocate consumer money based on utilisation/download distrubutions, and other allocation factors, such as more sentimental ones. In addition i think that just installing a module and then starting to recieve funding is a bad carrot, as i can already feel the drama of people who will refuse to give up ab…

Just a thought experiment, lets say funding was solved, but in a way that package's funding is split between owner and all dependencies. Then there would be economic incentive to implement trivial bits yourself and only dependencies bringing true value would be pulled in. This in turn would weed out all the rubbish packages as there would be no reason to create them in the first place, since no one would be installing them. It can benefit whole ecosystem where rules of Darwin's evolution come into play.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#33
Right now, the status quo is that maintainers create massive amounts of value and then for-profit companies and SaaS startups capture almost all of it.

I use the AGPLv3 for most of my software, because I don't work for free, for the most part, and want to use the strongest copyleft license available to ensure this. That parasitic corporations fear copyleft and the AGPLv3 in particular is just icing on the cake.

If you don't want your software used in this way, then don't use a permissive license. I sometimes use the most permissive licensing, the CC0, when I write something truly trivial and don't believe I could get away with making it copyleft. Perhaps you understand this general approach, but also that people would simply use a different implementation of your libraries if you did this is the issue here. You don't mention Free Software once this entire article though, so I find that unlikely.

But telling maintainers to bury their appeals where no one bothers to look is not the answer, either.

I vehemently oppose giving Github even more influence in the form of financial payments to its users. That's asinine and I refuse to use Github.

No one knows the value of a sponsor message in the terminal since this has never been tried before. That’s why this was an experiment.

The value is nil. I don't need to take a flame to a rabbit to know it will burn.

Fellow open source maintainers and open source contributors have, by and large, been supportive of the experiment. Open source “consumers”, not so much.

I'm not an open source maintainer, but I write Free Software libraries and I've voiced my opinion in the other thread here. This paragraph creates the impression only those who don't contribute disliked what you did. For the record, I found it and continue to find it suitably amusing.

Many supporters expressed their dislike of advertising – even advertising where the sponsors are carefully selected and the implementation does not track users or collect data.

Advertising is inherently awful and nothing will change that.

Approximately 100% of the Fortune 500 use open source code. Maintainers are just starting to wake up to our own power. Expect to be surprised. This certainly won’t be the last open source funding experiment.

I suggest investing in Free Software and not open source; is it any surprise that the rebranding of software freedom specifically tailored to corporate interests encourages this?

Even for simple single-purpose packages, there’s a non-trivial ongoing maintenance burden. Especially when you’re maintaining hundreds of packages, as many in the Node.js community do.

I've taken a look and I could probably claim hundreds of packages as well, if I wrote many, trivial packages, which is most of what I saw under your name. I currently have five libraries, two or three of which are somewhat trivial, not counting complete programs and other such things. It seems unfair to claim hundreds of packages when many of them seem so trivial and this is also never mentioned.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#34
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, devs I know are very sensitive to ads/privacy, much more so than to paying money. They also tend to be sensitive about arbitrary code execution, especially when running in a build system, which may be near things like deployment keys. The only thing keeping npm from turning into a minefield are norms around what is socially acceptable, so developers tend to get super angry when this norm is challenged.

> They also tend to be sensitive about arbitrary code execution Presumably, if you're already downloading and executing code that I wrote, you trust me to use `console.log` correctly?

Personally, if you’re trying to inject advertising scripts into my critical infrastructure, then no, I absolutely don’t trust you. Like many others, I put a lot of effort into trying to sanely manage my dependencies, finding adware in there would be an enormous red flag.

You’re probably a good person, and you seem to be trying to do something good. But I know almost nothing about you, and even if I did, the fact that you think build pipelines are a good place for adware instantaneously eliminates any trust I might ever have in your judgement.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#35

I'm a maintainer of a 10K+ starred project with 1M+ monthly downloads and I know Feross personally. I do not agree or support this movement. Don't do Open Source if you can't afford it. It is as simple as that. Framing it as exploitation is misses the point of collaboration. It has never been about us, it's been about giving value to the world. We can't play the victim card. Nobody wants a whining Batman or Spiderman…

I'm surprised nobody else has said this as well. If you want to get paid for your time or your projects then stop giving them away for free? Nobody is under any obligation to work on open source so it's peculiar that someone who chooses to do so would then complain afterwards...just stop working on it...

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#36
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, devs I know are very sensitive to ads/privacy, much more so than to paying money. They also tend to be sensitive about arbitrary code execution, especially when running in a build system, which may be near things like deployment keys. The only thing keeping npm from turning into a minefield are norms around what is socially acceptable, so developers tend to get super angry when this norm is challenged.

> They also tend to be sensitive about arbitrary code execution Presumably, if you're already downloading and executing code that I wrote, you trust me to use `console.log` correctly?

Sure, but using it incorrectly - or even unusually - is going to be grounds to revoke that trust, obviously.

You must be aware that some non-zero number of developers have moved away from your code precisely because they no longer trust you, right? (Not saying that's right, just that it's a thing at least a few devs will have done.)

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#37

Right now, the status quo is that maintainers create massive amounts of value and then for-profit companies and SaaS startups capture almost all of it. I use the AGPLv3 for most of my software, because I don't work for free, for the most part, and want to use the strongest copyleft license available to ensure this. That parasitic corporations fear copyleft and the AGPLv3 in particular is just icing on the cake. If yo…

Not to put too fine a point on it, "Free software" was invented to level the playing field. Copyleft was an attempt on building an ecosystem with a level playing field. Nobody has more or less abilities with respect to the code. The receiver of the code has the same abilities as the copyright holder (with the exception of being able to change the license).

When you choose a more permissive license, it may still be free software, but it may not promote a level playing field. This suits a lot of companies, but it's not that good for programmers (unless you are in the employ of said companies). As an independent programmer, copyleft (or share-alike) is your friend. I find it strange that this is a controversial point.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#38

Some suggestions that may see future attempts better received: 1. Try it on a repo with more substance. There were many comments about this project being a light wrapper around eslint config. It may be popular in GitHub stars, but intuition tells me the type of dev who installs a dependency to generate a JSON file is not the type to want to pay for anything; they're looking for a quick `npm install free-solution` for…

>Anecdotally, devs I know are very sensitive to ads/privacy, much more so than to paying money.

Thank you for qualifying this as devs you know. In reality, this is a very privileged position to take and I'd bet would be a minority if polled globally (between paying in cash or in ads)

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That attitude is very strange to me. I care about the quality and usefulness of my software. I give it away to give back, because I have been given much. There are bugs in my software which I will never discover on my own. When a user offers me a bug report or a patch, that user is also giving back. The bug report is a form of contribution. It gives me information I wouldn't otherwise have, which I can use to improve…

Monetizing our work is not strange. It might require some contortions compared to the most direct approach (step 1. write software. step 2. git push), but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Here is Charles Dickens writing about his own contortions to monetize his work: There must be a special design to overcome that specially trying mode of publication, and I cannot better express the difficulty and labour of it than…

Ok, but if I’m using your thing and I’ve found a bug, asking me to jump through some hoops and/or pay to report it means I just won’t bother.

Re: Recap of the `funding` experiment

#40
Even though I don't like ads either, I think this experiment was a glorious failure which will lead too much learning. That was supposed to be a compliment :)

I'm not sure if GitHub Sponsors is already planning this, but since they also track dependencies they could automatically distribute a part of the donations to all the transitive dependencies.

Also, I agree with others that Open Source by itself is not a business model. It's inherently altruistic, so self-sacrifice is a given and if you want to get paid, the best solution IMHO is to support companies who support FOSS by working for them (or founding one yourself). And while of course not everyone has that privilege, we collectively do have a lot of power to influence the job market and donation platforms:

- If you're currently interviewing, make it a point to ask about this.

- If you're currently employed, ask around what your company is sponsoring, or organize an effort to start doing so with a group of like-minded people.

- And lastly, if you're making a shitton of money, donate to the software you use in your private life.

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