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Dignity

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Re: Dignity

#31

Post by jackhack »

motohagiography wrote: post #28

Having recently finished "Hillbilly Elegy," this interview reminded me of similar themes. America doesn't really have a meaningful discourse on class I suspect because the Soviet machine dominated it for so long it became a kind of third-rail topic. If you are from a working class background, or find yourself navigating it, what you notice about people who have left it is they leave behind that very "dignity," (or ho…

I feel compelled to say thank you for this especially insightful comment. As one who escaped Appalachia and moved from blue collar work to a white collar career, everything you've said here rings true. You've captured the underlying reasoning in the social classes, the underlying insecurity and fear that makes us turn against one-another, and the cynical way that's utilized by a wannabe elite/ruling class, as I've experienced and observed it.

Re: Dignity

#32

Post by choeger »

new2628 wrote: post #21
choeger wrote: post #15

This is all about travel. In the terms of the author I have to consider myself a front-row person. But I can easily go back to the rural area I come from - and I do so regularly - and I really enjoy it every single time. If I could, I would probably live there. The thing is: you cannot live where your roots are and be who you want to be at the same time. You have to travel. A guy from the Ukraine cannot be a Stanford…

> A guy from the Ukraine cannot be a Stanford professor and be close to his parents at the same time. They can, however, use their experience from Stanford, and try to improve education in Ukraine, be an independent researcher in Ukraine, try to create a "mini-Stanford" around themselves in Ukraine, etc. An uphill battle for sure, but possibly with more immediate impact.

That is not the point. This would be like telling people who want better working conditions to found a company and implement them. When our hypothetical professor starts building Stanford in the Ukraine he stops being what he wants to be, a Stanford professor, and becomes something entirely different, a Stanford builder.

Re: Dignity

#33

Post by coldtea »

huhtenberg wrote: post #20
coldtea wrote: post #8

In much the same topic, I recommend this one too: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008AUKKUC/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?...

This points at "Nickel & Dimes" by Barbara Ehrenreich /your friendly amazon link deofuscator

Yep, though actually "Nickel & Dimed" (the book's title. The Amazon page is mistitled).

Re: Dignity

#34

Post by HarryHirsch »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #24
coldtea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions coming from a small 750-strong or something poor town? Perhaps that curriculum?

Isn't the curriculum set by the state?

Wikipedia has an article about the former principal of Randolph County High School in Alabama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulond_Humphries

There were tensions over interracial prom dates, then the school burnt down (it was unclear whether the Panthers or the Klan was to blame, but the smart money is on the Klan), there was something of a consent decree, and the principal was promoted to superintendent.

There are large tracts in the country that are so backwards that they cannot be improved, also because anyone capable left generations ago.

Re: Dignity

#35

Post by coldtea »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #24
coldtea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions coming from a small 750-strong or something poor town? Perhaps that curriculum?

Isn't the curriculum set by the state?

Are all schoolrooms able to absorb / taught the same state mandated curriculum though? I can imagine tons of things being skipped in more "poor/inner city" like classrooms, compared to things taught to middle class kids... (I can also imagine jaded teachers, huge commotion from the kids, etc preventing fully covering things).

Not sure, so just saying...

Re: Dignity

#36

Post by einhverfr »

Very interesting and provocative read, so another book on my reading list.

I grew up in small town America myself. I now live in Europe because in part it reminds me of the nice life I experienced there -- focus on family and community rather than the atomistic, anonymized individual of the big city. Europeans support families (and in particular raising kids) better than Americans do.

I sometimes talk with Americans about the problem of urban privilege, and the fact that urban Americans a) can't usually understand where rural Americans are coming from and b) see themselves as superior. Every point you can make about white privilege applies to the urbanites and the urban/rural split as well. I have lived in Sweden, which reminds me very much of rural Utah culturally, and in Germany which strikes me more like where I lived in rural Washington State.

I love how this guy seems to have made it across this divide both ways, and come to understand the quiet strength, admirable characteristics, dignity, and community that lies behind rural life and to understand the fact that this urban privilege can be seen through (as he calls back-row rather than front-row).

Re: Dignity

#37

Post by new2628 »

choeger wrote: post #32
new2628 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A guy from the Ukraine cannot be a Stanford professor and be close to his parents at the same time. They can, however, use their experience from Stanford, and try to improve education in Ukraine, be an independent researcher in Ukraine, try to create a "mini-Stanford" around themselves in Ukraine, etc. An uphill battle for sure, but possibly with more immediate impact.

That is not the point. This would be like telling people who want better working conditions to found a company and implement them. When our hypothetical professor starts building Stanford in the Ukraine he stops being what he wants to be, a Stanford professor, and becomes something entirely different, a Stanford builder.

Sure, I got the point, one cannot do the exact same thing in both places.

> This would be like telling people who want better working conditions to found a company and implement them.

In some situations that may be a reasonable thing to say, and indeed, many companies are founded that way.

But let me back down for a different reason: in the same situation I am not practicing the advice I was giving.

Re: Dignity

#39

Post by screye »

tremon wrote: post #27
ssivark wrote: post #4

One of the most poignant and evocative things I've read of late. I don't want to spoil the experience if you plan to read, so just two excerpts. > What I learned from the book is that the differences between the back and front row are more than money, marginality, jobs, and education. That is, the back row kids chose lives and educations that weren’t going to get them fancy jobs and high salaries, and they did it onl…

I had never expected to have my atheism challenged [..] part of it was recognizing a simply utilitarian value in faith That feels odd to me. Recognizing the value of community doesn't seem at odds with a rejection of supernatural entities. Likewise, I don't see the value of evangelizing my agnosticism to communities of different structure. Pluralism to me is an essential component of a society as large as our current…

> But by attacking faith on the unknowable, people have created much more animosity and defensiveness than should have been necessary.

You skipped over the fact, that religions hinge on explaining the unknowable, often in ways that harms certain communities and life styles. The attacks on religion have been squarely targeted at those aspects of religion. Atheists attacking a person's belief in a higher being (deists) is rather rare.

Friction is central to any change. If anything, the defensiveness and animosity is a necessary part of shifting power away from religious organizations.

Re: Dignity

#40

Post by einhverfr »

screye wrote: post #39
tremon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had never expected to have my atheism challenged [..] part of it was recognizing a simply utilitarian value in faith That feels odd to me. Recognizing the value of community doesn't seem at odds with a rejection of supernatural entities. Likewise, I don't see the value of evangelizing my agnosticism to communities of different structure. Pluralism to me is an essential component of a society as large as our current…

> But by attacking faith on the unknowable, people have created much more animosity and defensiveness than should have been necessary. You skipped over the fact, that religions hinge on explaining the unknowable, often in ways that harms certain communities and life styles. The attacks on religion have been squarely targeted at those aspects of religion. Atheists attacking a person's belief in a higher being (deists)…

> that religions hinge on explaining the unknowable

I don't think that is right. Mircea Eliade suggested that the primary function of mythology was a series of stories our lives could participate in and experience, and I think that's closer to the way religion is usually understood in most parts of the world outside the corner of Protestantism where your view holds most weight.

> often in ways that harms certain communities and life styles

My kids get to navigate three very different cultures -- traditional Indonesian society where getting married, procreating, and raising children is central to the family business economic order, the US where those are entirely separated from each other, and Germany where the recognition is you cannot have gender equality without support particularly for motherhood. I don't think you get that the conflicts between these are not merely religious but much more about the economic and social constitution of the societies, and that seeking to deprive, for example, Indonesia of their family business economic order in the name of sexual individualism or whatever harms these communities by opening them up to foreign exploitation. It's colonialism pure and simple.

Religion is an expression of culture and we assume our superiority over others culturally at great peril to both sides.

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