‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#31

Post by mikekchar » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

checktheorder wrote: post #16

nbevans wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh. He is saying you aren't seeking software engineering perfection - so forget trying to be an architecture astronaut and all that that entails. You are seeking product perfection - at any given time. And product perfection can only be judged by your customer satisfaction and business growth.

As a Canadian with a lot of iron rings in the family, it's always so weird to see the phrase "software engineer". It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

As a fellow Canadian I avoid the title. What's wrong with software developer? I don't do engineering, from the perspective of a P.Eng. I've only worked with one P.Eng to my knowledge and he couldn't do software engineering either (he wasn't even a particularly good software developer). I've heard of people doing things that sound like real engineering wrt software, but I've never actually met anyone who did it. I don't really travel in those circles.

However, I've worked with a fair number of really good software developers, who I think have earned that title. An iron ring means nothing to me in the work that I do. I don't suppose that you meant to imply that it did, but there is often some weird idea that an engineer is better than a developer. I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#32

Post by distances » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

checktheorder wrote: post #16

nbevans wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh. He is saying you aren't seeking software engineering perfection - so forget trying to be an architecture astronaut and all that that entails. You are seeking product perfection - at any given time. And product perfection can only be judged by your customer satisfaction and business growth.

As a Canadian with a lot of iron rings in the family, it's always so weird to see the phrase "software engineer". It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

In my part of Europe I expect software engineers to specifically have a university level engineer diploma ("diploma engineer"), and non-engineering MSc computer science graduates to go with some other title.

Frankly that may be becoming a bit unreasonable expectation considering the international use of the title, that's what I just grew up with.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#33

Post by ljf » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #12

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an uncharitable reading of the article. They aren’t just suggesting a different title - they’re suggesting doing a different job - shaping the product rather than just implementing it.

It's not a different job though. Everyone at a startup shapes the product. That's just what it's like working at a startup. That doesn't mean developers in startups aren't software engineers.

OK, not a title - a different mentality then - I've seen a lot of a lot of people in general, who just want to do what is asked, and never want to ask why or actually help change things/the product for the better.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#34

Post by mseidl » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

jermaustin1 wrote: post #22

mothsonasloth wrote: post #7

I worked at a startup as the first Dev, it was a shock for me having to now consider things like: * What company laptops to buy? * Assess the merits of AWS and GCP and make a decision. * Divine an architecture that will get the product to the customers ASAP but will last at least a year with growth before needing a major rethink. * Present to customers, board members and potential investors about the tech. Eventually…

What about London took its toll? I've been contemplating a switch from NYC to London. I know it will be a 30-50% pay cut, but I've been told by other's who have lived and worked in both that it is worth it for the better work/life balance.

I'm German, but was working in the US, but gave up the higher pay to the better health care, and quality of life in Germany.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#35

Post by sterileopinions » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:04 PM UTC

arpa wrote: post #23

Would people please stop shitting on php. It's no better nor worse than let's say, ruby. It gets shit done. It is a valid tool very widely used in the wild.

There are decades of history behind every criticism of PHP? Do you just want people to ignore them?

PHP can be a bit of a punching bag, even when it's not topical. But it's not exactly unwarranted.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#36

Post by Dirlewanger » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:06 PM UTC

checktheorder wrote: post #16

nbevans wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh. He is saying you aren't seeking software engineering perfection - so forget trying to be an architecture astronaut and all that that entails. You are seeking product perfection - at any given time. And product perfection can only be judged by your customer satisfaction and business growth.

As a Canadian with a lot of iron rings in the family, it's always so weird to see the phrase "software engineer". It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

It's a horrible misnomer of a title, I agree, but here in the states it has stuck for several cascading reasons:

* there's no FE exam needed to call oneself a "software engineer"

* the MBAs doing the hiring have gone through school hearing "software engineer" and so they mentally place them alongside other engineers

* companies hiring software developers don't care to differentiate between a engineer/developer, and as a result...

* software developers (from senior level all the way down to bootcamp graduates) don't give a shit and will put "Engineer" on their resume

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#37

Post by ck425 » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

Shouldn't all 'software engineers' be 'product engineers'? I don't really get his point, all he's describing is what any good engineer should be doing anyway.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#38

Post by salawat » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

checktheorder wrote: post #16

nbevans wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh. He is saying you aren't seeking software engineering perfection - so forget trying to be an architecture astronaut and all that that entails. You are seeking product perfection - at any given time. And product perfection can only be judged by your customer satisfaction and business growth.

As a Canadian with a lot of iron rings in the family, it's always so weird to see the phrase "software engineer". It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

I concur. As much as it pains me to realize I'd lose the comfort of the title if someone pushed it.

As a for instance; I'm a high friction actor in software implementations. I dig into the requirements, question the excessive ones, point out when implementations are starting to approach the macabre, and do my best to pressure companies away from being excessively intrusive in their data gathering or use of dark UX.

I've been asked more than once just who it is I think I'm working for informally, and warned at least once via indirect threat that I'm treading on thin ice.

While I'm not technically an Iron Ringer, I've always done my best to live up to the ideal in my practice. Without a PE for Software Engineering and the regulatory framework that comes with it though, for every one of practitioners like me who push to preserve the public's interest first, there are thousands pushing without a second thought to the consequences of what they are making.

Every risk management data corpus, every shortcut taken around regulations, every expedient hack can only have a protest lodged against it, and a suggestion of an alternate implementation given before the inevitable bouncing up and ignoring of the advisement.

In this type of environment, all one can do is puck their battles carefully until more steingent regulation gives one more leverage to bring to the table.

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#39

Post by codesternews » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

bgnm2000 wrote: post #30

mothsonasloth wrote: post #7

I worked at a startup as the first Dev, it was a shock for me having to now consider things like: * What company laptops to buy? * Assess the merits of AWS and GCP and make a decision. * Divine an architecture that will get the product to the customers ASAP but will last at least a year with growth before needing a major rethink. * Present to customers, board members and potential investors about the tech. Eventually…

I have a side project running on Dark, highly recommend

How do you keep motivated?

Re: ‘Product engineers’ vs ‘Software engineers’ in startups

#40

Post by unicornmama » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:09 PM UTC

checktheorder wrote: post #16

nbevans wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoosh. He is saying you aren't seeking software engineering perfection - so forget trying to be an architecture astronaut and all that that entails. You are seeking product perfection - at any given time. And product perfection can only be judged by your customer satisfaction and business growth.

As a Canadian with a lot of iron rings in the family, it's always so weird to see the phrase "software engineer". It just doesn't feel like it's been earned.

Who cares.