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The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

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Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#31

Post by mcot2 »

PeterStuer wrote: post #9
alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

You are in for a cold shower. Above 35 km/h (~22 mph) tire noise becomes the dominant factor. Besides, a large part of a modern vehicle's engine noise is designed. Some cars even go as far as play engine noises through added speakers.

Source? Does this hold true for diesel trucks and buses and garbage trucks which are very common in cities?

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#32

Post by acd »

Electric batteries gives the most effect in shared transport such as buses and taxis. If I remember correctly it’s 50x more efficient with batteries in such public vehicles. This is due to higher utilization they buses drive all day vs private cars mostly are parked.

This we should electrify public transport first for maximum carbon reduction.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#33

Post by joking »

agumonkey wrote: post #26
charlesism wrote: post #10

Alot about our system of roads and cars strikes me as crazy. Most of the vehicles on the road have only one person in them, yet weigh as much as an elephant. Nobody drives under the speed limit, which is typically fast enough to result in hundreds of thousands of fatalities every year anyways. Every neighborhood designed primarily for these idiotically heavy vehicles, that occasionally drive over pets and children wh…

The worst part about it IMO is traffic light and stops. In a city, if you can drive around 20mph (25 maybe) uninterrupted, you get in most places very fast, very pleasantly and with fuel savings since you never slow down. Instead of a smooth flow, you get drivers that do: - high accelerations - nervous braking - idle engine running between 30 - 60 seconds (120 max?) Pure waste. Maybe I'm asking for a problem too comp…

Difficult for big vehicles, but changing the landscape and focusing more on personal mobility vehicles and a lot can be done (like the elevated roundabouts for bikes on Netherlands)

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#34

Post by acd »

lawlessone wrote: post #27

Electric vehicles would make a huge difference to me and many others that suffer from asthma. Moving the emissions away from the vehicles , away from city centres and roads to the factories and power stations where they can be controlled would save thousands of lives. Our children will look at us how we look at people during the industrial revolution. And a gradual change is better than no change at all.

Very true many countries in Europe has shifted to diesels due to lower co2 but they make the air dirty. Dirty air is bad for asthmatics.

Hybrid gasoline/biogas can be as co2 efficient as diesel if not more with a lot cleaner tail pipe air. Almost zero local emission with 10kw batteries and upwards.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#35

Post by nikconwell »

agumonkey wrote: post #26
charlesism wrote: post #10

Alot about our system of roads and cars strikes me as crazy. Most of the vehicles on the road have only one person in them, yet weigh as much as an elephant. Nobody drives under the speed limit, which is typically fast enough to result in hundreds of thousands of fatalities every year anyways. Every neighborhood designed primarily for these idiotically heavy vehicles, that occasionally drive over pets and children wh…

The worst part about it IMO is traffic light and stops. In a city, if you can drive around 20mph (25 maybe) uninterrupted, you get in most places very fast, very pleasantly and with fuel savings since you never slow down. Instead of a smooth flow, you get drivers that do: - high accelerations - nervous braking - idle engine running between 30 - 60 seconds (120 max?) Pure waste. Maybe I'm asking for a problem too comp…

Has anyone ever seen calculations of whether leveling out the roads would save significantly in energy? We are slowly getting regenerative technology into cars so we can at least recapture some energy on the way down, but avoiding the use of energy for going up would seem like an even better win. The bonus is the level roads would also benefit older vehicles not equipped to recapture energy.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#36

Post by Denzel »

eptcyka wrote: post #21
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The argument isn't that doing _something_ is bad, it's that the amount of effort people put into obtaining their shiny non-paleolithic-compost-fueled-but-rather-battery-powered 2 tonne sledgehammers would be better spent changing policies that operate on organizational rather than individual units. How about we just stop buying as much shit from halfway across the world? Global trade requires us to spend stupid amoun…

You didn’t rebut any of my points.

First, can you not buy an electric car and advocate and enact organizational or systematic change? They’re not mutually exclusive.

Second, how do dynamic systems composed of many independent, self-directed agents change? Instantaneously or over some period of time? How long is that period of time? Probably much longer a period of time than it takes to purchase an electric vehicle (immediately.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#37

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

eptcyka wrote: post #21
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The argument isn't that doing _something_ is bad, it's that the amount of effort people put into obtaining their shiny non-paleolithic-compost-fueled-but-rather-battery-powered 2 tonne sledgehammers would be better spent changing policies that operate on organizational rather than individual units. How about we just stop buying as much shit from halfway across the world? Global trade requires us to spend stupid amoun…

This is a textbook example of false dilemma fallacy. Replacing ICE cars with electric cars doesn't preclude other environmental measures, and in fact, people who worry about their car's emissions tend to be people who worry about other environmental issues as well.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#38

Post by mrhappyunhappy »

Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The problem is time. Or lack of it. We cannot afford for the markets to work things out for us. Sure, you can shift culture and behavior but that takes time that we do not have. It’s time for drastic policy change and swift global action.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#39

Post by pjc50 »

imtringued wrote: post #17
mkj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll be disappointed, tyre and air noise doesn't change much at speed with electric cars.

Time spent producing noise in a given location decreases with speed. The worst thing in terms of noise is not a car passing by every 10 seconds. It's a bus idling for 2 minutes in front of you.

We now have hybrid buses that shut off at idle. Simple and effective noise reduction.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#40

Post by cowsandmilk »

mcot2 wrote: post #31
PeterStuer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in for a cold shower. Above 35 km/h (~22 mph) tire noise becomes the dominant factor. Besides, a large part of a modern vehicle's engine noise is designed. Some cars even go as far as play engine noises through added speakers.

Source? Does this hold true for diesel trucks and buses and garbage trucks which are very common in cities?

> Does this hold true for diesel trucks and buses and garbage trucks which are very common in cities?

I know from the hybrid buses in Boston that they are a massive reduction in noise for the passengers. When you're at a stop, it is great to not have that engine idling. Electric will only be better in that regard.

The garbage trucks though seem to make a shit load of brake noise though. And noise from trash dumping on top of trash and being compacted.

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