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Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

theintercept.com

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Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#31

Post by Clubber »

komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

>This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must.

Second amendment-ers are keenly aware of this.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#32

Post by drak0n1c »

komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

There is a dichotomy in the government between elected representatives and unelected bureaucrats. The "deep state" exists but it is not nearly as malicious as popularly portrayed. At worst, those who make their careers as unelected bureaucrats and federal officers may occasionally be self-protecting and rationalize their decisions in terms of the trolley problem as for the greater national good, and are overly confident in their ability to discern what that is.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#33

Post by Silhouette »

elliekelly wrote: post #23
Arubis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty likely that your and my (dis)taste for particular politicians and parties overlaps, but keep in mind that only one single senator voted against the passage of the Patriot Act as originally presented. My strong suspicion is that the association of W. with the modern surveillance state, while accurate, has far more to do with timing than with party.

My Constitutional Law professor was big on not just exploring the legal analysis of cases but on making sure we understood the social/historical context at the time decisions were made. He used to tell us fear is the biggest threat to freedom because nothing erodes the constitution as quickly as a public panic. At the time I honestly thought he was being a little dramatic but seeing all of the things we allow the gov…

He certainly did. Indeed, similar sentiments have been expressed before, and not always by nice people:

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy: all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger.

(Hermann Goering, commenting on the ease of taking a country to war regardless of its political system, during the Nuremberg trials)

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#34

Post by nyolfen »

Clubber wrote: post #31
komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

>This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must. Second amendment-ers are keenly aware of this.

seriously, this is probably the least intuitive group to single out over this

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#35

Post by tbyehl »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #9
Arubis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, Truman. Or Hoover. Generally speaking, people capable of getting themselves elected President have authoritarian tendencies.

Bush ushered in the modern surveillance state. Since him, the differences of the 2 parties has blurred insomuch while the government may vary from administration from administration as to what services the federal government as a whole provides, but one thing is for sure: it will always be watching you no matter what. The alphabet agencies will never relinquish their newfound surveillance powers.

Clinton and CALEA don't get enough credit for creating the infrastructure of the modern American surveillance state.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#36

Post by komali2 »

Clubber wrote: post #31
komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

>This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must. Second amendment-ers are keenly aware of this.

Speaking from experience with them, they seem to think the 2nd amendment must necessarily be respected by the very government they think is allowing them the guns to threaten said government with in the first place. That's the cognitive hole I'm pointing to - if they stockpile weapons to eventually potentially overthrow the US government, they must do so knowing that it will be illegal to do so regardless - the 2nd amendment won't protect them in that case, and is thus practically useless for what they think it's useful for.

AKA, the life of a militiaman that intends to use weapons to overthrow the USA is, to the USA, the life of a terrorist/rebel/enemy of the state. It's not a constitutionally protected state of existence.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#37

Post by vkou »

drak0n1c wrote: post #32
komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

There is a dichotomy in the government between elected representatives and unelected bureaucrats. The "deep state" exists but it is not nearly as malicious as popularly portrayed. At worst, those who make their careers as unelected bureaucrats and federal officers may occasionally be self-protecting and rationalize their decisions in terms of the trolley problem as for the greater national good, and are overly confid…

Most unelected bureaucrats only have a job at the whims of elected representatives. Your vote for the bureaucrats, via proxy of your representative.

I'm not sure why people have a hard time grasping this concept, when they grasp the concept of representative democracy (Where you vote for new legislature, or for supreme court appointments, or for executive actions, via proxy of voting for a representative of congress, or a president.)

I can only assume that it's a defense mechanism, where you can blame the boogieman of the deep state when the candidate you voted for does not deliver us to a land of milk and honey, and turns out to be an all-around shitty human being.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#38

Post by rayiner »

komali2 wrote: post #17

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States There are two versions of the United States. 1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon…

Isn’t it up to the people to decide how much daylight they think there is between #1 and #2? When the US topples foreign dictators, is that justified by saying we’re doing it for the good of their people, as distinguished from their government?

It’s notable that in weeks of democratic debates hitting all sorts of issues, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone get traction by talking about surveillance.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#39

Post by rayiner »

komali2 wrote: post #36
Clubber wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must. Second amendment-ers are keenly aware of this.

Speaking from experience with them, they seem to think the 2nd amendment must necessarily be respected by the very government they think is allowing them the guns to threaten said government with in the first place. That's the cognitive hole I'm pointing to - if they stockpile weapons to eventually potentially overthrow the US government, they must do so knowing that it will be illegal to do so regardless - the 2nd a…

The 2A doesn’t protect the use of arms against the government, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard a 2A advocate suggest that. The point is to prevent the government from disarming the populace before such action might be required.

Re: Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

#40

Post by merpnderp »

vkou wrote: post #37
drak0n1c wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a dichotomy in the government between elected representatives and unelected bureaucrats. The "deep state" exists but it is not nearly as malicious as popularly portrayed. At worst, those who make their careers as unelected bureaucrats and federal officers may occasionally be self-protecting and rationalize their decisions in terms of the trolley problem as for the greater national good, and are overly confid…

Most unelected bureaucrats only have a job at the whims of elected representatives. Your vote for the bureaucrats, via proxy of your representative. I'm not sure why people have a hard time grasping this concept, when they grasp the concept of representative democracy (Where you vote for new legislature, or for supreme court appointments, or for executive actions, via proxy of voting for a representative of congress,…

This has been on a trend of less and less true as Congress continues to abdicate its responsibilities to bureaucrats in the Executive office.

It doesn't matter which party they vote for as much of the day to day lives of citizens is determined by people who never stood for election, and barely answer to someone who did.

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