8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#31

Post by wyldfire » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:33 AM UTC

javagram wrote: post #25

wyldfire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently this marks US Mass shooting #250 for 2019 (this was the 215th day of the year). [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/03/el-pas...

Worth considering the varying definitions of mass shooting can inflate the count beyond what people may think of when they read “mass shooting”. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/12/... The US is a large company and there are more guns than people. There’s a lot of opportunity for people to snap and go on a rampage, unfortunately.

Even if they consider "3" to be "mass" it's a bit alarming.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#32

Post by eej2ya1K » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

chvid wrote: post #15

Does anyone have an idea of how big 8chan and 4chan is in terms of users? Just from the visible activity in there I can see they must be massive. I think Slate is incorrect in describing them as expression of traditional neo-nazism. To me they are quite their own thing. Born out of Anime culture and gaming-culture becoming a playground for role playing, trash talking, trolling, real-life pranks degenerating into what…

You start out by making relatively innocent jokes about jews, and notice that certain portions of the anglosphere left and right really respond to this. Not only do they tell you that you can't say that, they also shower you with threats of violence. Successful troll is successful. So you go a bit further, start moving into actual anti-semitic jokes, conspiracies. Still just for the lulz, but it gets an even better reaction. Meanwhile, your image board/irc buddies, the only people in your life who treat you like a real human being, keep egging you, some of them pointing to the reactions you're getting as proof that there's some kind of underlying truth behind the jokes. "Yeah, sure, the protocols of the elders of zion isn't real, but look at the reactions you're getting for what amounts to lazy trolling! And from people with actual power - political power, media power, financial power..."

I think you can see where it goes from here - the road to hell isn't always paved with good intentions, but when turning around means accepting that the people who hate you are right, what are you going to do?

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#33

Post by belltaco » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #24

kartan wrote: post #8

There was a time that it was difficult for me to understand how it was possible that governments in the middle east were supporting domestic terrorism. It was difficult to imagine how normal people were supporting the killing of fellow citizens. Now, that I see this same trend unravel in the USA it becomes easier to understand. I have seen for the past decades the shifting of what "conservative" means. Extremists wer…

The reason why extremism is having more trouble taking root in Europe is because there's less inequality there. Where inequality is highest, terrorism is highest.

I don't see how it's related to inequality. I don't think any of these shooters were poor or went through poverty. For this incident the press showed pictures of a big single family home in suburban Dallas.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#34

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:36 AM UTC

kartan wrote: post #8

There was a time that it was difficult for me to understand how it was possible that governments in the middle east were supporting domestic terrorism. It was difficult to imagine how normal people were supporting the killing of fellow citizens. Now, that I see this same trend unravel in the USA it becomes easier to understand. I have seen for the past decades the shifting of what "conservative" means. Extremists wer…

[deleted]

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#35

Post by lixtra » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #24

kartan wrote: post #8

There was a time that it was difficult for me to understand how it was possible that governments in the middle east were supporting domestic terrorism. It was difficult to imagine how normal people were supporting the killing of fellow citizens. Now, that I see this same trend unravel in the USA it becomes easier to understand. I have seen for the past decades the shifting of what "conservative" means. Extremists wer…

The reason why extremism is having more trouble taking root in Europe is because there's less inequality there. Where inequality is highest, terrorism is highest.

I doubt it’s that one dimensional. One could point out that making things equal results in (edit) even more terror (as most former communists countries prove). Of course that reasoning would ignore the Scandinavian “exception“.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#36

Post by Causality1 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

kartan wrote: post #10

Causality1 wrote: post #4

One feels compelled to point out that, despite 8chan being a breeding ground of hate, threads by mass shooters are typically removed in minutes and threats or manifestos containing identifying information are forwarded to the authorities, with at least one known incident being prevented by them, a planned shooting at Bethel Park High School. Which, frankly, is the surprising part since I don't know why any sane perso…

> despite 8chan being a breeding ground of hate, threads by mass shooters are typically removed in minutes So, it is ok that people promote and help mass shooters as far as there is no direct connection the day of the attack? > Going there is just asking for trouble and I would urge anyone curious to look for screenshots instead of actually visiting the website. Is a screenshot of hate speech promoting hate less than…

Oh, I'm not saying find a screenshot because it encourages them less, I'm saying find a screenshot because if you go there you risk being mentally scarred, to say nothing if someone sees it in your internet history or you're dumb enough to visit it on a corporate network or work laptop/phone. That would be a well-deserved firing, if not for being a racist then for being a moron.

>Why are we sparing white-nationalist propaganda?

Racist propaganda doesn't violate anyone's rights and is hence protected speech. Imminent threats and specific calls to violence are a different matter.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#37

Post by ethbro » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

chvid wrote: post #15

Does anyone have an idea of how big 8chan and 4chan is in terms of users? Just from the visible activity in there I can see they must be massive. I think Slate is incorrect in describing them as expression of traditional neo-nazism. To me they are quite their own thing. Born out of Anime culture and gaming-culture becoming a playground for role playing, trash talking, trolling, real-life pranks degenerating into what…

> You start by joking that you are a jew-hating nazi and then after a while you become an actual jew-hating nazi. How does that work psychologically?

Confirmation bias.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Also, the tendency of emotional events to imprint more strongly on ones memory than less emotional events.

If I'm with my friends, having a good time and joking about being a Nazi, maybe I remember that more strongly when I think "Nazi." Vs the horrific historical details I only read in a book.

Couple that with escalation of commitment, and you essentially have 8chan in a nutshell.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#38

Post by clairity » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

kartan wrote: post #8

There was a time that it was difficult for me to understand how it was possible that governments in the middle east were supporting domestic terrorism. It was difficult to imagine how normal people were supporting the killing of fellow citizens. Now, that I see this same trend unravel in the USA it becomes easier to understand. I have seen for the past decades the shifting of what "conservative" means. Extremists wer…

you sound more distraught than hopeful, so let me add some perspective. what's amazing is that relative to opportunity, terrorism (and mass shootings as a subset) is extremely rare. many, many things will kill you (or a loved one) before terrorism will (accidental shooting, drowning, overdose, heart attack, car accident, etc.). while we all do have a violent side, we are a remarkably empathetic and social species who largely follow cultural and moral rules for the good of the whole.

on your last point, it wasn't terrorism or just zenophobia that caused genocide, but state actors (and their leadership) lusting for power, notoriety, and wealth. that's rare too, since it took a perfect storm of many bad circumstances and decisions (from what i understand).

that's not to say don't be vigilant or push for change (since rare doesn't mean impossible). just don't feel hopeless or a sense of despair that things are somehow so much worse now.

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#39

Post by belltaco » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

ghostcluster wrote: post #29

Despite the attention these cases get, the US murder rate is half what it was in 1980 https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/murder-rates

Murders are frequently family and gang related. Mass shootings of random people are a different thing altogether.

How many murders in 1980 were of people that the killer did not know personally?

Re: 8chan Is a Normal Part of Mass Shootings Now

#40

Post by wisty » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

We could talk about how this is largely a mental health problem. A lot of depressed young men do stupid risky stuff with no concern for their own well-being. I know a few guys who have wrapped their cars around trees. I bet most shooters were just throwing in the towel in a more hateful and dramatic way.

I see the main issue as a marketing problem for psychology. Men are focused on solving problems, and I'd bet they see psychology as a bunch of talk-therapy (like it's portrayed on TV shows and movies). Women might want to talk about their problems to find some kind of scapegoat, but men would often rather solve them. The ironic thing is, modern therapy is often quite problem-solving focused.

A related issue seems to be that a lot of these guys can't talk to women. As in, they can't ask women out. It's rarely their personalities or looks (look at domestic violence perpetrators if you want to see how awful you can be and still find a girlfriend), it's often that no-one wants to tell them how to ask women out (except on certain dark corners of the internet).

Recognising and addressing these kinds of problems means humanising them though. We can humanise Palestinian terrorists and drug dealers, but can we really humanise depressed and nerdy young men? I dunno.