Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#31

Post by zaksoup » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:41 AM UTC

chr1 wrote: post #25

nyolfen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it pointless to attempt democracy when so many democratic states are corrupt?

Not a good comparison because democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones, so we have evidence that democracy is an improvement compared to other methods.

> democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones

Union wages are consistently higher than non-union wages, so we have evidence that unions are an improvement compared to direct relationships with employers.

Source: literally every long-term economic comparison of wages done for the last 50 years.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#32

Post by bibinou » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

lrg wrote: post #8

It's funny how they couldn't get an amazon warehouse employee to stand in front of a camera and read this script.

robots are cheaper.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#33

Post by cambalache » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:50 AM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #13

cameronbrown wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's Advocate: If there are so many examples of weak implementations, then is the principle therefore unsound?

is it pointless to attempt democracy when so many democratic states are corrupt?

You silly man, the only fallible institutions worth to maintain are those which benefit the people in power. All the rest are pie-in-the-sky utopias which should never be even discussed unless you are a commie lover.well, are you?

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#34

Post by bibinou » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:50 AM UTC

full 29 minutes version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRpwVwFxyk4

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#35

Post by cambalache » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:53 AM UTC

zaksoup wrote: post #31

chr1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a good comparison because democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones, so we have evidence that democracy is an improvement compared to other methods.

> democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones Union wages are consistently higher than non-union wages, so we have evidence that unions are an improvement compared to direct relationships with employers. Source: literally every long-term economic comparison of wages done for the last 50 years.

And not only wages, almost every single work right has been won by sweat and blood of the organized workers. 8 hours working day, 2 days off a week, vacation time, pregnancy leave, medical insurance, etc, etc. None of them was implemented as result of the benevolence of the dominant classes.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#36

Post by mirimir » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:54 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #30

mirimir wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A century of pro-corporation-monopoly advocacy will not change the fact that corporations as generally conceived are anti-market interventions and thus economically unsound.

Corporations as generally conceived are not anti-market interventions. A union backed by the state imposing a rule that violates an employer's contracting rights by 1. preventing them from negotiating with workers outside of the union, 2. preventing them from firing workers who unionize or strike and replacing them with new workers, is. These are blatant anti-market interventions that give any group of workers that u…

It's true that the legality of unions in the US depends on an exception in antitrust law. But it's also true that corporations depend on state-backed exceptions to common law. As such, corporations were generally illegal in the US until the late 1800s.

There was an exception for corporations serving the public interest. Initially for building canals and railroads. But in the late 1800s, a series of Supreme Court opinions removed those limitations. Eventually, they got some protection under the 1st, 5th and 14th Amendments. And recently, wider protection under the 1st Amendment.

As long as we're going to allow collective action by business owners, it's only fair that we allow collective action by workers.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#37

Post by jewelry » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:56 AM UTC

Why is anti-union a bad thing? Couldn't resonate with the idea that union is saving workers. They are not.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#38

Post by cambalache » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:57 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #19

If Amazon's work force unionizes, Amazon will cease to be a dynamic company that sees rapid foreign expansion and growth in export revenue it earns for the US. The US will see yet another major driver of innovation and production growth, this time the tech industry, succumb to social activists and their rent-seeking-motivated ideological narratives. A century of pro-union-monopoly advocacy will not change the fact th…

Ah you mean,like Hollywood.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#39

Post by mc32 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

icxa wrote: post #4

Absurdity of this video aside, but I just wish there was room in today's political environment to discuss pros and cons to unions and non-unions. There are some pretty good examples of unions being corrupt, there are examples where unions work. There are examples where like Amazon says, having a direct relationship with your employer is the best. Nuance is gone which is the biggest loss.

Definitely. Unions brought progress in terms of worker rights, up to a point. They helped transform the landscape for all workers.

But, like all big and complex organizations they become corrupted and rather than having the interest of workers and society as foremost goals, self perpetuation and preservation become the goals.

Except for Bernie no other candidate explicitly and implicitly supports unions. All the others support policies which would undermine unions, except for where it’s politically expedient.

But this is natural. Even in the proletarian era of Mao, unions/workers suffered descent too. Often a most favored group would be pitted against another when necessary, for example the Hong Wei Bings [紅衛兵]

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#40

Post by zaroth » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 1:14 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #36

CryptoPunk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations as generally conceived are not anti-market interventions. A union backed by the state imposing a rule that violates an employer's contracting rights by 1. preventing them from negotiating with workers outside of the union, 2. preventing them from firing workers who unionize or strike and replacing them with new workers, is. These are blatant anti-market interventions that give any group of workers that u…

It's true that the legality of unions in the US depends on an exception in antitrust law. But it's also true that corporations depend on state-backed exceptions to common law. As such, corporations were generally illegal in the US until the late 1800s. There was an exception for corporations serving the public interest. Initially for building canals and railroads. But in the late 1800s, a series of Supreme Court opin…

Any form of business larger than a sole proprietorship is a collective action.

The “corporate” form of a business (as supposed to a partnership or other structure) is mostly a matter of taxes, legal liability, and the manner of raising capital and distributing profits.

Powerful unions are typically larger than the workforce of any one single company.