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The Invention of Money

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31–40 of 119 posts

Re: The Invention of Money

#31
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even beyond that, there's an argument to be made that money (and debt) are at their core quantified and malleable representations of social relations.

Isn't that stretching "social"? The money I hold is not tied to the yet unknown individual or group with with whom I will exchange it for goods or services, the person might not even be born yet.

The reason the unknown individual or group will choose to accept it is very much tied to their social and legal relations with other people.

Re: The Invention of Money

#32

So if gold is the only real money (and everything else is just debt)... What does gold’s year-long rally this year tell us?

Faith is the only real money. The only thing money measures is optimism about the future - both micro ("I am optimistic that you can repay this loan") macro ("I am optimistic this country's military spending and worker-hostile environment guarantees my investment will be protected"), corporate ("I am optimistic about the contents of this earnings call"), and specific ("I have more faith in this asset class than in ot…

> The tangible items that aren't primarily faith-based are land and housing, so they do well as reliable investments.

Why are you ignoring commodities? Wheat, iron, oil etc. are all commodities that are much more useful as a monetary base than land and housing because they are orders of magnitude more liquid (meaning you can acquire it and subsequently sell it while incurring a smaller loss).

Re: The Invention of Money

#33
post #6
post #3

For a huge (huge!) fictionalized (but very entertaining) account of the invention of money & modern markets, read the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson.

Doesn't the Baroque Cycle have two approaches to banking in England - the Whig Bank of England and the competing Tory Land Bank (which used land rather than gold as the underlying asset)?

I thought (via "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds") that it was actually tied into the South Sea Bubble, and that the Bank's role was that of a central bank in a crisis: provision of unlimited liquidity, regardless of whether or not it's "backed" by anything.

Re: The Invention of Money

#34
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense is gold the real money? Gold doesn't back most currencies any longer. Money is the real money.

Then why would it make sense for a country like say China to build up massive (largest ever) hoarse of good? https://tradingeconomics.com/china/gold-reserves

China since 2016 has signed bilateral agreements with several oil-producing nations to receive payments in yuan backed by gold. This bypasses the need for the "petrodollar". This is the most likely reason for China's recent insatiable demand for gold.

Re: The Invention of Money

#35
post #24

So if gold is the only real money (and everything else is just debt)... What does gold’s year-long rally this year tell us?

How is gold more real than debt? To me debt is far superior. Debt means you have a commitment from a human (directly or indirectly, if the debt is owed by an organization). Gold has no inherent value at all apart from some minor uses of relatively small amounts in the economy. Except by agreement, which debt also has. An example for debt-based I once read somewhere was a kid writing an IOU for garden work. As long as…

It is easier for somebody to have more faith in gold than in someone's promise to pay back a debt (using work or a commodity). Especially in dealings between sovereign entities.

Re: The Invention of Money

#36
These “evolution of money”-type stories always miss the financial instrument that enabled the gold standard to function in the first place: the Bill of Exchange.

A Hungarian math professor by the name of Antal Fekete offers a much more convincing explanation of the journey from gold to paper money: http://professorfekete.com/articles/AEFMonEcon101Lecture5.pd...

In essence, the Bill of Exchange was required for gold to work as money by it acting as a means of payment between producers. If one producer in the line of production of steel, say the producer who digs up iron ore, requires payment in gold when delivering iron ore to the steel producer, the gold standard does not scale as the division of labor increases, as more gold would be required (for payment of semi-finished goods) for each additional step added. The Bill of Exchange solves this by acting as a means of payment between producers of increasingly finished consumer goods.

Re: The Invention of Money

#37
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is gold more real than debt? To me debt is far superior. Debt means you have a commitment from a human (directly or indirectly, if the debt is owed by an organization). Gold has no inherent value at all apart from some minor uses of relatively small amounts in the economy. Except by agreement, which debt also has. An example for debt-based I once read somewhere was a kid writing an IOU for garden work. As long as…

You can’t separate debt from money because debt is money owed. And there’s clearly a difference between having something and being owed something.

You can have a money debt but you can have all other kind of debts, so, debt is the most general concept.

Re: The Invention of Money

#38
Money is not solving our problems any more. Adam smith argues that the optimal decision making structure consists of the entities executing the transaction. They have ‘perfect’ information on value and utility for themselves. This was clearly shown by the ‘failure’ of communism and central administration in an attempt to add ‘fairness’ across all members of the economic community who are not involved in the transaction. Today we are exploring the illusion of fairness with taxation and entitlements on an increasingly granular level with the help of deep learning, large databases and subscriptions. Still no one has addressed the elephant in the room - economic inertia. Even with perfect information and frictionless transactions there is a strong disincentive to ‘improved’ products and services. The profit centers are intent on maintaining the transaction patterns even tho they are destroying the infrastructure that they require - examples include the irreversible change of the climate through Using the short term decisions without modeling long term consequences as well as the homogenization and ‘dumbing down’of our civilization through lowest common denominator strategies.

Even with perfect information and perfect short term utility, we are not mentally equipped to sense, evaluate and act on long term effects of our choices. Although this shortcoming has little impact in the ‘linear’ regime where we are a trivial component of the ecology, at current size and growth rate, humanity significantly destabilizes capitalism’s ability to succeed.

Re: The Invention of Money

#40
post #36

These “evolution of money”-type stories always miss the financial instrument that enabled the gold standard to function in the first place: the Bill of Exchange. A Hungarian math professor by the name of Antal Fekete offers a much more convincing explanation of the journey from gold to paper money: http://professorfekete.com/articles/AEFMonEcon101Lecture5.pd... In essence, the Bill of Exchange was required for gold t…

Bill of Exchange is a form of paper money, and the article mentions Genghis Khan's grandson's paper money in the 13th Century.
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