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Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

logicmag.io

31–40 of 52 posts

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#31
post #14

I 100% agree with this article, but I suspect it will not be well received here. HN is so focused on innovation at all costs that anything that goes against that will be rejected. I think that one of the issues with doing as the author suggests and thinking of technology as a transformation is that it can be hard to come up with the downsides of your new tech. Engineers will constantly be encouraged by management and…

> [...] was that known at the time? Could engineers working on a canal project have anticipated socioeconomic trends like this? Mexico City has grown from 4 million in 1951 (the time of flood mentioned in the first paragraph) to over 20 million today. Few civil engineering projects solve problems 70 years in the future for a city five times as large. As far as I can tell from the article, the engineers did anticipate…

>It's OK to just solve the tractable problems in front of us and to get a good couple of decades out of a system.

Is it? Is it really? The point the article is making is that by designing a system which solves the problems in front of them to get a good many decades out of a system, those engineers have actually made other problems worse. I think you're being overly simplistic when you suggest that the problem the article is proposing is that the system requires some rework.

The problem the article is proposing is that fundamental, irreperable damage has been done. We can't un-do that damage. Short term thinking like what you're proposing is, by the vast majority of evidence and evidenced theories, destroying our world and risking the survival of our species. It is not okay to just solve the problems in front of us now if the cost is that all our children die in chaos and poverty--and it looks like the cost is just that.

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#32
This article is making a lot of unattributed claims on behalf “Silicon Valley entrepreneurs”:

“the promise of technological fixes peddled by Silicon Valley entrepreneurs that seem to allow us to continue with business as usual.”

“But if we are to listen to Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and their allies in government and academia, we should not worry about changing our collective way of living on the planet: climate change is simply a problem that can be solved with “disruptive” new engineering innovations, from carbon capture and storage to electric cars.”

The only direct quote is from an unnamed Tesla executive answering an unspecified question: “those are questions for philosophers—next question.” For all we know, he might have been asked why bad things happen to good people.

Attacking whole groups of people for unspecified and unattributed proposals is a truly obnoxious rhetorical tactic. You can blame anything on anyone this way.

Edit: I want to clarify that I think the thesis of the article, that engineering is used both to enact and obscure political outcomes, is true and important. The engineering problems described are a fine example of this dynamic, and I wish the author had stopped there, rather undermining this important argument in such an easily avoidable way.

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#33
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] was that known at the time? Could engineers working on a canal project have anticipated socioeconomic trends like this? Mexico City has grown from 4 million in 1951 (the time of flood mentioned in the first paragraph) to over 20 million today. Few civil engineering projects solve problems 70 years in the future for a city five times as large. As far as I can tell from the article, the engineers did anticipate…

>It's OK to just solve the tractable problems in front of us and to get a good couple of decades out of a system. Is it? Is it really ? The point the article is making is that by designing a system which solves the problems in front of them to get a good many decades out of a system, those engineers have actually made other problems worse. I think you're being overly simplistic when you suggest that the problem the a…

The engineering is fine.

You simply need to remove 15 million people to somewhere else.

So what is your solution to that?

(The lesson from Katrina is simply that there IS no solution--you have to let things build until a catastrophic event finally forces people out of the area.)

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#34
I've been to Mexico DF once. I visited downtown and there was a literal mountain of garbage in the central plaza (easily two stories high). Maybe Mexico City engineers are shit (pun intended), at least article implies it as it's the only example they give.

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#36
I'd like to share a related theory I've been thinking about lately, which applies some of the ideas latent in this article to software engineering.

1. Code is a liability.

2. Therefore, adding new code to your codebase is adding liability to your codebase, at the margins.

3. Refining/documenting code at the leaves transforms some of those leaves liabilities into assets.

4. Refining/documenting code in the branch/trunk transforms some of that branch's liability into an asset, but usually undoes any progress made in the leaves.

5. We are paid to (a) create liabilities and (b) transform liabilities into assets. If you do too much of (a) and not enough of (b), you are a bad engineer.

The fun thing is that you can analyze a software program like this (module A is a leaf to module B). You can also analyze the whole stack like this (Redux is a leaf to React, is a leaf to JS, is a leaf to Chromium, is a leaf to Intel, is a leaf to the Van Neumann model).

This ties into the article, because engineers don't "just" solve problems (unless you're Van Neumann?). Usually, we first create a problem (which is usually the dual of problem we are nominally paid to solve), and then we very slowly and iteratively "solve" that newly-created problem over time.

It sounds somewhat Sisyphean, but that's life/evolution! It's a joy to see things slowly crystallize into highly-functional, specialized components. Even if those components will inevitably become obsolete one day, they will still make for interesting fossils (see Zork's source code, dinosaurs, etc.).

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#37

Engineers solve problems. Doesn't mean all problems are defined properly. That's why part of the hype around design thinking is about solving the right problem before solving the problem right .

I can sort of see a genie analogy here.

"I wish we didn't have so much water!"

"Your wish is my command: all the water now drains out of the city."

"Wait, I meant..."

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#38

Engineers solve problems. Doesn't mean all problems are defined properly. That's why part of the hype around design thinking is about solving the right problem before solving the problem right .

Working with limited information means making decisions that might turn out to be bad ones down the line. I agree with your statement, but the opportunity cost of figuring out the exact right problem to solve is inaction, and inaction is often worse than making a poorly-informed judgement.

> but the opportunity cost of figuring out the exact right problem to solve is inaction, and inaction is often worse than making a poorly-informed judgement.

That reminds me a lot of the days when managers did not want to do proper code testing and coverage because without that they could ship more code. Defining the problem upfront and doing rapid iteration not just on the solution but also problem definition is nowadays more important and effective than just shipping.

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#39
Pragmatically, I believe engineers indeed "solve" problems. However, the author is getting philosophical here, and argues the solutions themselves would create its unique, unforeseeable problem in the future. Thus engineers don't "solve" problems but "transform" problems.

It makes perfect sense to me, but is it correct to blame engineering?

Philosophically speaking, my pet theory is that the entire history of human civilization is an eternal process of solving existing problem by creating new forms of societies, thus creating their own problems, ad infinitum. It began since the use of fire, the invention of language and systematic agriculture, and moving towards more complex forms, simply because it has to be. I think some radical philosophers have not only argued that the industrial revolution was a mistake, but that the civilization itself can be seen as a type of technology, and it was a mistake.

Although some thinkers believe we should somehow degrowth and freeze the civilization for the best interests of human happiness, I don't think it's really coming. The human civilization on Earth is a very centralized system today. It may be possible in a future space age where human civilization spreads across the galaxy when centralization would be no longer possible and enable some regions to choose a primitive approach to civilization, or in a future digital age when computational resource is practically post-scarcity that enables minds and civilizations to exist independently in cyberspaces (even then, engineers have to work tirelessly to increase the computational power of the system before it collapses, although the laws of physics have set an extremely high upper limit for reversible computation, unlike many types of physical resources, so I don't think it would be a problem in many centuries if improvements is continued).

But before that, the ride will go on. If we are lucky enough not to accidentally destroy ourselves from a massive environmental incident or a world war, and we can keep engineering new solutions before the current system collapses, the ride towards, at least solar system domination, seems certain.

So I don't really think creating new problems to solve is an engineering problem and one should blame engineering for not solving problems.

Re: Engineers Don't Solve Problems (2018)

#40
I would agree with this article, as an electrical engineering student.

All solutions to problems have design constraints, and all solutions are limited. All actions have consequences.

The "move fast and break things" mentality is asking for trouble, certainly. Even acting as prudently as possible, serious issues will arise.

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