Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#31

Post by alexis_fr » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:05 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #19

gamedori wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

I think you underestimate Boeing size, wealth, and importance to the federal government.

This.

- Boeing is certainly well financially engineered in many financial vehicles,

- It’s alone the #1 net exporter of USA,

- USA needs Boeing, whether it exports or not. Boeing also funds candidates, just mentioning.

- Existing conpanies need to maintain their existing planes, and they need Boeing’s consultancy for that,

- I’d say even Airbus needs their competitor, or they would fall in a dangerous monopolistic position.

As much as one would enjoy the spectacle of a corrupted eating the dust, it is probably too stable to happen. But ever heard of De Havailland? That’s probably to do with their 4 crashes in a row, due to its airframe shredding of metal fatigue and material constraints being concentrated on the edges of their square windows. Ever flew in a DC-10 or MD-11? That’s probably to do with their 4 crashes in a raw, for a bad doorlock. Just saying.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#32

Post by lizmat » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

alexis_fr wrote: post #25

xvf22 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those fixes where they add up the value of human life if something goes wrong and say 'OK we can handle that, ship it"

I wonder if the human life calculation worked well this time. As far as I see, Boeing lost more than the sum of the human lives; they also lost reputation for everything new they’ve designed in the last 7 years being corrupted, and they also engulfed the reputation of FAA with them, whose agents would fit the definition of “corrupted” by any people’s definition (I know, they are not, they just used agents of Boeing t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#33

Post by std_throwaway » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #7

Imagine if your bugfix process was broadcast to the world, every new IN added to spirateam et al, every new crash condition found by test/QA, every time the software failed in test, it got printed by news organizations the world over. This is world the 737MAX software people are living in, for this alone, they have my utmost respect.

> Imagine if your bugfix process was broadcast to the world

Have you heard of the site called github?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#34

Post by alexis_fr » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #24

CamperBob2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. After one more plane crash, it will probably become uneconomical for carriers to continue operating the 737.

How does a crash on the 737MAX effect operations on 737NG aircraft, or older ones - what suddenly makes it uneconomical?

Because people are made aware that Boeing wasn’t serious with engineering since 2012. And the FAA paid Boeing consultants to inspect Boeing, which by all layman’s definition fall under the terms of “corrupted”.

Who wouldn’t pay attention to the little mention in Google Flights with the brand of the plane?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#35

Post by iguy » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:09 AM UTC

alexis_fr wrote: post #25

xvf22 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those fixes where they add up the value of human life if something goes wrong and say 'OK we can handle that, ship it"

I wonder if the human life calculation worked well this time. As far as I see, Boeing lost more than the sum of the human lives; they also lost reputation for everything new they’ve designed in the last 7 years being corrupted, and they also engulfed the reputation of FAA with them, whose agents would fit the definition of “corrupted” by any people’s definition (I know, they are not, they just used agents of Boeing t…

Except that, unlike de Havailland, Boeing is too big to fail. There's just no way the US will allow it to keel over, and leave Airbus the sole supplier. And as with the banks, you can bet that this implicit guarantee gets figured into what decisions people take.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#36

Post by lizmat » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:10 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #24

CamperBob2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. After one more plane crash, it will probably become uneconomical for carriers to continue operating the 737.

How does a crash on the 737MAX effect operations on 737NG aircraft, or older ones - what suddenly makes it uneconomical?

People's refusal to fly in anything with "737" in its name.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#37

Post by Aloha » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:14 AM UTC

nraynaud wrote: post #29

Aloha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you seem to be an expert in airplanes and complex systems, which components are not certifiable? the 737MAX could have been certified as a new airplane, with a new type certificate, and a new pilot type rating to go with it - but that would have removed much (or all) of its economic justification to exist.

It would be a not very good airplane. It has only 2 selling points: its type certificate, and its 737 footprint at the terminal. Any new airplane would be a bit higher, it brings some downsides (ground operations people really like the easy access), but having bigger engines under the wings is such an advantage that it overrides all other considerations.

Thats kinda my point, the shared type certificate is most of the justification for the airplane to exist, Boeing would rather build a whole new small aircraft, people who fly on them would rather fly on a whole new aircraft - airlines however strongly prefer something that costs as little as possible to put into service - and has commonality with existing fleets, which means not a whole new aircraft.

I bet if you offered Delta some brand new MD-95's they'd take up on them, as they have basically every MD-95 produced.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#38

Post by goodcanadian » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:18 AM UTC

pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

Sounds like a running joke at my work. Any hardware problem or design failure: you can fix it in software!

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#39

Post by thelittleone » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:19 AM UTC

aurelwu wrote: post #4

pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

That sounds like adding a heuristic which works most of the time which is something I can see myself doing to cover some pathfinding issue in a game where it's sufficient if it works 99,9% of the time or when working on a simulation where I can look on the result data afterwards and can see if something looks highly unusual despite the heuristic and improve it iteratively - a luxury you don't get with air planes, at…

Wasn’t aware the compute power was low on the 737. Interested if you have some more info?

Always thought they would spec a substantially more processing capability than required. I understand economics are a factor but surely it’s not through necessity to save power?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#40

Post by Aloha » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 8:21 AM UTC

alexis_fr wrote: post #34

Aloha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a crash on the 737MAX effect operations on 737NG aircraft, or older ones - what suddenly makes it uneconomical?

Because people are made aware that Boeing wasn’t serious with engineering since 2012. And the FAA paid Boeing consultants to inspect Boeing, which by all layman’s definition fall under the terms of “corrupted”. Who wouldn’t pay attention to the little mention in Google Flights with the brand of the plane?

I think you grossly overestimate the general public, and their ability to pay attention, or care. The 737MAX isnt the first aircraft to have an issue like this - and they kept flying them.