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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

bbc.com

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#31

Post by mtgx »

anvandare wrote: post #25
i_am_nomad wrote: post #3

... for now. What would be far more reassuring would be a statement from Google that Project Dragonfly does not meet their ethical standards as a company.

The fact that they even started the project speaks for itself. Companies don't have ethical standards, only slick PR departments.

Don't be evil being spread throughout their work of conduct documents used to be pretty good for that, which is why you have so many people push back against management on this and Project Maven now.

But when Google all but removed the don't be evil thing from the work of conduct guidelines, that should have been a huge red flag that the company is no longer interested in "educating" its employees on this kind of ethics, and would prefer that its new employees treat the one and only leftover mention of Don't be evil in the work of conduct as what it really is now - a way for Google to say that it's still in there somewhere, and nothing more. The Don't be evil spirit within work of conduct guidelines is gone.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#32

Post by iamnotacrook »

chvid wrote: post #7

Does anyone know the exact requirements set by China on google for them to enter the Chinese market? I suppose adherence to Chinese law but what exactly? Support of law enforcement, censorship of specific sites, personal data stored in China etc...

Does anyone know whether there are in fact "exact requirements" at all, or whether you just have informal off the record chats with officials where you're given to understand that it would be "looked upon favourably" if this or happens or does not happen. From everything I've read about how China operates it's sort of the exact opposite in one sense from the west. In the west there are rules and there are loopholes around the rules. In China they are sort of more pragmatic - they want to protect growth & security and resist foreign interference whether cultural or religious; what's written as a rule or law or whatever isn't such a big deal; there's an understanding that you just do what you're told in that context. So they don't mind Google operating there but if Google run operations which "threaten orderliness" then it's going to have a hard time.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#33

Post by lonelappde »

geophertz wrote: post #27
anvandare wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they even started the project speaks for itself. Companies don't have ethical standards, only slick PR departments.

Strangely people do not care about Apple doing the same thing. Even on HN posts talking about how Apple sells privacy as a product are upvoted and reach > 1000 upvotes.

As I understand it, Apple allows iOS users to use an end to end encrypted product with an option to back up to Chinese Communist Party silo of iCloud.

Apple does not offer a product that spies on user usage all the time monitoring for thought crime, as Web Search just under Chinese law.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#36

Post by jkaptur »

sneak wrote: post #24
ZeroCool2u wrote: post #16

While a certain amount of cynicism is healthy and it should be acknowledged that Google can always back track, I'm still happy that for now they've decided not to assist and facilitate one of the most Orwellian nation's to ever exist.

> I'm still happy that for now they've decided not to assist and facilitate one of the most Orwellian nation's to ever exist. Don’t get too excited; they haven’t announced a lack of participation in PRISM yet. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

What would you want Google to say?

"I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say “originally” because you’ll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now, what does happen is that we get specific requests from the government for user data. We review each of those requests and push back when the request is overly broad or doesn’t follow the correct process. There is no free-for-all, no direct access, no indirect access, no back door, no drop box."

https://venturebeat.com/2013/06/19/google-issues-clearest-st...

(I work at Google, not in a relevant role.)

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#37

Post by ionised »

yoz-y wrote: post #30
qserasera wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The project was reported to have ceased late last year but rumors that it remained active persisted." so that's probably never going to be 'terminated'

rumors != fact

I attended a talk by Jack Poulson (quit Google over Dragonfly and how it was handled) over the last weekend and he suggested that based on Google's reaction, it has definitely been simply shelved until the resistance and media attention dies down.

The whole thing was carried out in secret to begin with and Sundar Pichai has been completely silent on how it jives with it's own ethical standards.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#39

Post by ionised »

ZeroCool2u wrote: post #16

While a certain amount of cynicism is healthy and it should be acknowledged that Google can always back track, I'm still happy that for now they've decided not to assist and facilitate one of the most Orwellian nation's to ever exist.

They are just waiting for the right moment to try again.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#40

Post by sneak »

jkaptur wrote: post #36
sneak wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm still happy that for now they've decided not to assist and facilitate one of the most Orwellian nation's to ever exist. Don’t get too excited; they haven’t announced a lack of participation in PRISM yet. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

What would you want Google to say? "I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say “originally” because you’ll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now,…

Either Ed Snowden is lying, or Google is.
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