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Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

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Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#31

Post by nixpulvis »

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/

The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false.

I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys feel. Switching even from my thinkpad to friends butterfly MacBooks makes typing significantly harder for me.

As far as RSI is concerned, there was a time when I used to play WoW and I thought I might have a problem with this, but between small hand stretches and maybe just luck, I don't have these problems anymore. Maybe they'll come back as I continue to get older.

Here's a random reddit thread where random people seem to think posture and technique avoids RSI. I'm tempted to agree.

https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists...

And some good advice http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-p...

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#32

Post by Klathmon »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #12
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mech…

I absolutely haven't gotten that feeling from the mechanical keyboard community.

They seem pretty accepting of anything, and are often more concerned with finding the right keyboard for what you want. There are jokes and memes that go around, but not many people have issues with any kinds of switches.

Some people really prefer the tactile feel, and others really want the super high activation forces. It's a tradeoff, and there are more options now than ever.

I have a split ortholinear keyboard with Kailh blue 50cN activation force "clicky" switches, a BDN9 macro pad with Cherry MX White (80cN "clicky" switches), a planck with cherry MX brown 55cN quiet "tactile" switches, and an aging das-keyboard 4 ultimate that I replaced the stock greetech switches with MOD L Linear switches with a 45cN activation weight.

I have to say that I thought the lighter activation would be nice, but it was actually MORE stressful for my hands because even though I wouldn't normally accidentally activate the switch by resting my hands, if I moved too quickly or kind of let my fingers relax it would press down enough sometimes to type accidentally, leading to me kind of "hovering" my fingers above the keys all the time. I also missed the tactile feel that I was getting used to on other boards to avoid having to "bottom out" the keys for the most part.

I'm not going to say it's worse for everyone, but for me I greatly prefer 50-70cN activation force for typing, and I really like the "heavy" feel of the cherry MX White switches for my macro pad. You may like the lighter force switches. In that case you may want to go for linear switches as they tend to have smaller activation weights. Take a look at the Kalih silver or copper switches, or the cherry MX speed silver if you can find them. They are about as light as mechanical switches come.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#33

Post by blattimwind »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #12
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mech…

> It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI.

I have been using a keyboard with relatively heavy switches for years now and never had fewer problems typing.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#34

Post by thrwaway442 »

Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not?

A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before.

I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is insane.

I easily felt when I was making a mistake, I had confidence in what I was typing. (because of each little click.)

But it was also really loud.

Is that necessary? Is it part of what made me fast and accurate?

The obvious way to test this which would not change the feel of the keyboard at all, would be to put in foam earbuds and then see if my typing rate or accuracy drops when I can't hear the keyboard. Unfortunately I didn't have any with me so I didn't try it.

Can someone who uses a mechanical keyboard comment on whether the audible noise from it is part of the typing loop? if someone here has the inclination and a mechanical keyboard and happens to have hearing protection with them could you try it and tell me whether your typing rate or accuracy drops if you can't hear the keyboard? (if you do an online typing test with strong hearing protection in.)

If it does not, then why aren't there any absolutely silent keyboards that just have the feel (tactile feedback) but without any loud click?

I plain can't decide if this clickety-clack noise is part of the feedback loop the typist uses or not. My family member's keyboard was incredibly loud.

--

[1] I'm being very literal so just to show you, on my own keyboard now I took a screenshot 15 seconds into a test, before I made any mistakes: https://imgur.com/a/eOejvsu - this was really hard for me to do now. On my own keyboard I can average 100 wpm for 60 seconds but it's really hard: https://imgur.com/a/tClgZR4

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#35

Post by psyclobe »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #12
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mech…

I will never sell my 103UB realforce 55g weighted keyboard. It is the best keyboard I have ever owned.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#36

Post by atoav »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #12
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mech…

I actually like strong switches. Contrary to intuition lighter switches are exhausting me more than weaker switches for some reason.

Maybe because I play Bass and my fingers are used to a certain kind of haptic feedback?

In the end it doesn’t matter, as long at is not one of these ultraflat new macbook keyboards, I hate typing on them.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#37

Post by oposa »

tjoff wrote: post #28
oposa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprim…

We are talking about diy though? So I don't see how any of that is relevant?

I don't think we are talking about the same diy.

There is one definition of diy, which I guess is now more common, that means self-repair, crafting or hobbyism. But there is also a more distinct definition, as in diy culture, that means having the capabilities that are usually only afforded certain professionals or companies. It is primary the latter definition that creates innovation and communities.

The parent was asking why there isn't more innovation in keyboards despite the freedom to create them. The reason is because most of these keyboard are scrapbooks rather than zines. For that purpose 3d printing and handwiring makes sense. But for the purpose of innovation you need to be able to distribute your ideas. Which is something most people can't, because it is hard to do so.

That is why most people are making flat keyboards, because that is what is within their reach. But that is more ikea than hip hop. Maybe we should call it aiy, assemble-it-yourself, instead (but that really isn't that important).

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#38

Post by atoav »

thrwaway442 wrote: post #34

Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not? A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before. I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is…

I have a keyboard with silent black MX switches and I never felt any need for clickyness.

The cool thing about these linear switches (Black, Red, Silver, Grey) is that you can type extremely silent if you like to, by just hovering the keys or you can type loudly by bottoming them out (if somebody was wrong on the internet or so).

When I type silently it is less loud than my lenovo notebook keyboard.

For me the click was never really necessary — the resistance of the spring is already enough. Maybe it is because I play guitar, bass and piano.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#39

Post by _ph_ »

nixpulvis wrote: post #31
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/ The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false. I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys f…

If you compare a piano with a standard keyboard, there are a lot of differences. The problem with the standard keyboard is, that for touch-typing, the hands need to be angled very unnaturally, as they have to be close together, yet lined up in an almost parallel position. The only way to achive that is to flex your wrists, and that is where a lot of stress originates from.

A piano is very wide, and you often have you hands spaced very far from each other. This reduces a lot of stress. Also, you don't have your fingers basically tied to the same positions, but during the play, the wrists change position a lot, so there is no static pressure into a single unnatural position. The active movement should be beneficial to your wrists too. Finally, the keys are pretty large, giving more possible hand positions to hit them.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#40

Post by oposa »

DanBC wrote: post #17
melling wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s disappointing that there’s so little innovation. Surely, we must have learned more about ergonomics in the past half century? The DataHand was a new interesting “keyboard” design in the 1990’s, about 25 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand Btw, Xahlee has a great article on keyboard switches: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html

There's some innovation but there are also aggressive patent holders who are holding things back. For example, Matius was stopping one-handed keyboards for a while. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html There were things like the Frogpad or the HandyKey Twiddler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA

It is also, like many things in hardware, a software problem. The purpose of a keyboard is to interact with software. And that software is biased towards certain layouts. It is hard to change the layout too much without quickly becoming a niche product. Add to that the barrier to entry to making a hardware product is still quite high, and relatively costly.
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