How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours • Hacker News Board

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#31

Post by cybersnowflake » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 1:53 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #28

cybersnowflake wrote: post #25

The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society and an extreme reluctance to imprison or even pursue certain crimes that would be unacceptable anywhere else. Combined with being caught hiding data such as demographic information I'd take any fellation of scandanavian policy with a grain of salt. I assume the community here considers themselves logical…

Yet when similar approaches have been trialled in the UK, they worked just as well. When you consider the cost per year of imprisonment recidivism and rehabilitation should the main priority. Homogeneity is not required. The whole "tough on crime" headlines and media campaigns in certain sections of the media, and certain shades of politics are the cause of much of our problem with overcrowded and brutal prisons. Tou…

Okay why hasn't this revolutionized the entire UK prison system and why haven't they bought yachts and luxurious hunting cabins for all their murderers and rapists if this is both drastically cheaper and more effective? Why hasn't this been adapted in the same way as fully anywhere in the world except Scandinavia? I mean officials do what they want when deciding not to execute or give elective surgery to felons or needles to druggies despite what the public thinks but this is a line they won't cross despite the supposed mountain of evidence? And its not like rehabilitation, even fairly generous rehabilitation isn't a concept thats been tried for centuries.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#32

Post by timoth3y » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 3:20 AM UTC

cybersnowflake wrote: post #30

timoth3y wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society Citation needed. This claim gets thrown around a lot, but is there any evidence or actual research backing the claim that diversity leads to crime? There is plenty of evidence that disenfranchisement leads to crime, but you can have diversity without disenfranchisement.

Where are your citations that the Scandinavian style of relatively luxurious prisoner treatment is more effective? If we're going by correlations there's probably no more evidence for this than the correlation with homogeneous ordered societies. Probably less since you have like a couple datapoints exclusively in northern europe while the whole world tends to show a trend of imprisonment outcomes being better in nonb…

Since you don't have evidence, your "ugly truth" is really just your ugly opinion.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#33

Post by imtringued » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 12:24 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #27

Bit of an unpopular opinion here: either you have a criminal correction system or a justice system or a hybrid of the two. My unpopular opinion is that if justice is to be administered in any shape or form it supersedes the need to correct a criminal. I am sure many here will agree with "Ends don't justify means". That goes both ways,the end goal of rehabilitating a criminal does not justify the means. To me justice…

That's just selfish thinking. Your type of thinking breaks down as soon as someone innocent is punished. At that point it's just about having an axe to grind.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#34

Post by imtringued » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 12:30 PM UTC

rofo1 wrote: post #20

aalleavitch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't even think deranged people like serial killers and pedophile rapists can change. It's a lot better to base this judgement on real data than on the vengeful feelings of the wronged. Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant…

> Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant people purely out of vengeance. I don't think punishment for criminal action is "revenge" or "vengeance". In theory, it is suppose to stop the possibility of it occurring again and hopefull…

>it is suppose to stop the possibility of it occurring again

It doesn't do that.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#35

Post by imtringued » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 12:33 PM UTC

cybersnowflake wrote: post #31

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet when similar approaches have been trialled in the UK, they worked just as well. When you consider the cost per year of imprisonment recidivism and rehabilitation should the main priority. Homogeneity is not required. The whole "tough on crime" headlines and media campaigns in certain sections of the media, and certain shades of politics are the cause of much of our problem with overcrowded and brutal prisons. Tou…

Okay why hasn't this revolutionized the entire UK prison system and why haven't they bought yachts and luxurious hunting cabins for all their murderers and rapists if this is both drastically cheaper and more effective? Why hasn't this been adapted in the same way as fully anywhere in the world except Scandinavia? I mean officials do what they want when deciding not to execute or give elective surgery to felons or ne…

Just read this HN thread. The people don't want less crime, they want more "justice". Especially the people that run those prisons.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#36

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 12:39 PM UTC

cybersnowflake wrote: post #31

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet when similar approaches have been trialled in the UK, they worked just as well. When you consider the cost per year of imprisonment recidivism and rehabilitation should the main priority. Homogeneity is not required. The whole "tough on crime" headlines and media campaigns in certain sections of the media, and certain shades of politics are the cause of much of our problem with overcrowded and brutal prisons. Tou…

Okay why hasn't this revolutionized the entire UK prison system and why haven't they bought yachts and luxurious hunting cabins for all their murderers and rapists if this is both drastically cheaper and more effective? Why hasn't this been adapted in the same way as fully anywhere in the world except Scandinavia? I mean officials do what they want when deciding not to execute or give elective surgery to felons or ne…

> Okay why hasn't this revolutionized the entire UK prison system

But it is quietly revolutionising the UK prison system. We've had Conservative politicians saying that prisons don't work and that we need a different approach.

As with everything that got shelved because Brexit.