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Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

hongkongfp.com

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Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#31

Post by sandworm101 »

lordnacho wrote: post #20
djsumdog wrote: post #19

I really hope Hong Kong gains independence from China. They do not want to be part of that regime. Hong Kong currently participates in some United Nations committees, but is not recognized as a country. Have there been any political leaders in Hong Kong who have publicly opposed returning to China or who have requested recognition by other UN member States?

This sounds like a complete no-go. Would the rest of the world accept HK as an independent state? Look how they're accepting Taiwan. Now add that China has actual agreements on the status of HK and Macau.

>> During talks with Thatcher, China planned to invade and seize Hong Kong if the negotiations set off unrest in the colony. Thatcher later said that Deng told her bluntly that China could easily take Hong Kong by force, stating that "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon", to which she replied that "there is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

The eyes of the world indeed do "know what China is like". They do not care. Should HK move towards independence, tanks will roll south and the world will do nothing.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#32

Post by snovv_crash »

rolltiide wrote: post #23
reaperducer wrote: post #5

FWIW, the BBC World Service coverage of this has been... disappointing. During the time the protestors were raising the British flag in the legislative chamber, the World Service was doing an in-depth report on Taylor Swift's latest social media rant, and interviewing some blogger about Ivanka Trump. I remember when the BBC was the go-to place for breaking world news.

What exactly is the sentiment of raising the old British HK flag? Is it like that would be a preferred status of HK? Is is like a reference to former puppets running HK, who now report to Beijing instead of Britain? Is it just trolling?

It's certainly newsworthy. Perhaps even a journalist might even have asked them...

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#33

Post by tempguy9999 »

vkou wrote: post #28
nkoren wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False flag op was my instant reaction as well. The original protestors were fastidious in their civic-mindedness. These are not them. These protestors are producing made-to-order photos for the Chinese press. When China steps in to "restore order", this will be why.

> The original protestors were fastidious in their civic-mindedness. General question: What is your process for determining whether or not a protest you read about is peaceful, fastidiously civic-minded, or if it is just a bunch of hooligans who want to break windows? How do you apply that process for determining the nature of protests in your local city? I ask, because I've never been to, seen, heard of, or read abo…

> What is your process for determining whether or not a protest you read about is peaceful, fastidiously civic-minded, or if it is just a bunch of hooligans who want to break windows?

Whether they smash windows and vandalise, or not.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#34

Post by b_tterc_p »

T-A wrote: post #26
b_tterc_p wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels unlikely. Does China really want to sent troops into Hong Kong? Trump is not a civic minded person, but I imagine such an action would not play well towards their current PR and economic troubles for trade deals. It also creates a genuine likelihood of raising anti Chinese sentiment and increasing the threat of violent resistance.

> Does China really want to sent troops into Hong Kong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...

Interesting but not really contradictory. The fact that there are physically troops there isn’t all that significant. This Wikipedia suggests they’re not allowed to interfere and that they’re not supposed to support public order. Deploying these troops would be maybe slightly less controversial than new soldiers but still highly frowned upon. Sending Chinese troops to put down protestors would probably rally another third of the city state to the cause.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#35

Post by xiii1408 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #30
xiii1408 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In each of those cases there's absolutely a process (albeit a long and arduous process) for secession. It's a process truly democratic countries need to have. Don't forget that Scotland very nearly did leave the UK, with the government's consent, in 2014 (but the referendum didn't pass). The Catalonia case is a bit murkier, since the Catalan government did not actually reach an agreement with the Spanish government b…

I don't think the USA has a legal process for secession.

Yeah, there's at least a supreme court precedent, set by Texas v. White. It outlawed unilateral succession, but ruled that "revolution or consent of the states" can lead to secession.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#36

Post by klodolph »

lordnacho wrote: post #20
djsumdog wrote: post #19

I really hope Hong Kong gains independence from China. They do not want to be part of that regime. Hong Kong currently participates in some United Nations committees, but is not recognized as a country. Have there been any political leaders in Hong Kong who have publicly opposed returning to China or who have requested recognition by other UN member States?

This sounds like a complete no-go. Would the rest of the world accept HK as an independent state? Look how they're accepting Taiwan. Now add that China has actual agreements on the status of HK and Macau.

Taiwan is poster child for the difference between "de facto" and "de jure". I don't think you could sum up the situation with Taiwan quite so simply.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#37

Post by HippoBaro »

rolltiide wrote: post #23
reaperducer wrote: post #5

FWIW, the BBC World Service coverage of this has been... disappointing. During the time the protestors were raising the British flag in the legislative chamber, the World Service was doing an in-depth report on Taylor Swift's latest social media rant, and interviewing some blogger about Ivanka Trump. I remember when the BBC was the go-to place for breaking world news.

What exactly is the sentiment of raising the old British HK flag? Is it like that would be a preferred status of HK? Is is like a reference to former puppets running HK, who now report to Beijing instead of Britain? Is it just trolling?

From what I understand, they largely romanticize the times when Hong Kong was a British colony. However, it seems clear that what the protesters are asking for is ideologically more in-line with a British/Western conception of a democratic society. And because Hong Kong will never be independent and the CCP never democratic, raising the British HK flag is the last thing they can hold on to.

I see it as a testament to their desperation.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#38

Post by germinalphrase »

pmyteh wrote: post #12
germinalphrase wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, they are stalling until political leadership can suggest an angle to take on the events.

The BBC has all kinds of problems. Waiting for a 'line to take' from politicians is emphatically not one of them.

That is good to hear. As an American, I’m not sure how independently the editorial choices are made at the BBC.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#39

Post by loyukfai »

T-A wrote: post #26
b_tterc_p wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels unlikely. Does China really want to sent troops into Hong Kong? Trump is not a civic minded person, but I imagine such an action would not play well towards their current PR and economic troubles for trade deals. It also creates a genuine likelihood of raising anti Chinese sentiment and increasing the threat of violent resistance.

> Does China really want to sent troops into Hong Kong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...

The garrison troops have yet to interfere in the domestic affairs of Hong Kong, at least directly.

If and when they do, it will be unlikely to end well.

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