Live data from Hacker News

MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

seattletimes.com

31–40 of 42 posts

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#31
post #3

The thinking of "we don't want the system to not work if it's needed" thinking demonstrates a failure to understand the prior probabilities involved. Most of the time the flight conditions will not warrant activation of the MCAS, and apparently the system is sufficiently unreliable/easy to damage that the chances of the system inadvertently triggering is high. But Boeing wanted to be sure that MCAS would always activ…

The real fix is to never fly on a 737 MAX

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were designed correctly, it shouldn't matter if it were activated or not - it would always be safe. If it were designed correctly there would be at least 3 AoA sensors and the loss or disagreement of one would not affect the functioning of the system other than displaying a warning message to the pilots. If the two remaining disagreed then the system would be disabled. This is assuming that the system is necess…

If the MAX was designed correctly then MCAS would not be needed in the first place. Fixing MCAS is fixing the wrong problem.

I agree ideally it would not be needed at all, however I believe that if Boeing decided that a new airframe would be too costly then they could have designed MCAS to be safe, by including a greater degree of hardware redundancy and an appropriately thorough development and testing process.

It seems that they did neither of these things, and still haven't learned their lesson because they are trying to rush to patch the lack of necessary hardware using software.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#33
post #20
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Boeing is multiple people. Business culture celebrates a manager who can push their project ahead of others. Maybe MCAS had a project manager who was a bit of an overachiever in that regard.

Surely I'm not the only one reading "overachiever" here as a wry euphemism.

Not really: person A is tasked with remeditating risk X (dangerous pitch-up at high AoA), persons B, C are tasked with remediating some other risks Y, Z, or just generally keeping an eye on the big picture. Now if person A is better than the others at pushing the needs of their particular target metric (or just more stubborn, a particularly easy form of "strength"), that plane will surely never crash due pitch up at high AoA, but maybe more likely due to other dangers that became more likely for the sake of never crashing from that pitch up problem that A was sent out to solve. This cost will be seen as a consequence of the weakness of B, C, not of the "strength" of A.

The high-resolve powerplayer who pushes their assigned task ahead of big-picture concerns is the hero of ambitious middle management culture. We see that happen many times, just rarely in domains as deadly as aviation.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#34
post #27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airframe cannot be certified airworthy without MCAS according to existing regulations. It is quite literally the only thing enabling the airframe to pass basic design requirements that have been mandated for years.

Citation? Nothing in FAR 25 permits a computer system to make airworthy an unairworthy airplane design.

Equivalent safety exception.

It's the blanket exception that makes most fly-by-wire controlled aircraft airworthy. The problem here of course, is that you never had enough scrutiny paid to the fly-by-wire implementation to make sure that under no circumstances can the system fail non-operational.

This was the subject of much controversy back in the 60's when th 727 was being certified. It required additional workarounds (implementation of a stick pusher) to be certified airworthy in U.K. airspace.

That certification went through despite the protest of Test pilots at the time that certifying an airframe with a widget to "plaster over" non-compliant behavior would simply start a slippery slope of normalization of deviance whereby engineers would over time be able to certify less "passively" airworthy frames. Those pilots were absolutely correct; as by definition that is exactly what most fly-by-wire aircraft are. Airframes that are only rendered airworthy with the addition of computer logic.

See the Royal Aeronautics Society D.P. Davies Interview.

Should be in this one. The 727 section starts at 51:00

Equivalent level of Safety discussion starts at 1:01:00

[1] https://www.aerosociety.com/news/audio-the-d-p-davies-interv...

Highly recommend to listening to all four episodes just because. It's informative, and for me was rather illuminative in terms of the constant conflict between aerodynamicists to leverage every trick possible to deliver more efficient designs, and pilots to ensure that planes don't become so complex to fly that they can't be reasonably saved even when things go wrong.

While history forces us to accept the validity of the approach (no one reasonably wants to kill Airbus); it is obvious there are ways that poorly implemented/communicated fly-by-wire piloting aids render an aircraft less safe. The MAX has illustrated one of these corner cases.

Furthermore, just read the article. They lay it out plain as day. The test pilots knew that the MAX's compliance and certifiability couldn't go forward in it's current configuration without being brought back into compliance with MCAS.

Despite that, testing to ensure this lynchpin system would not hit any edge case behavior with catastrophic results wasn't done; despite the fact that any reasonable engineer should have realized it was necessary. Give me a bit to drill through and I'll try to find the exact line this "equivalent safety exception" maps to. I'm not sure I'll find it because from the way Davies talks about it it strikes me as one of those possibly "unwritten" corollaries that tends to live beside anything codified. My main point though, is that this cavalier behavior with regard to airworthyness isn't unprecedented, and has been called out before. I fully accept it was different people working there then, but time and again I find echoes of an organization's risk management culture tends to survive the changing of the guard without active attempts to remedy it.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#35
post #34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation? Nothing in FAR 25 permits a computer system to make airworthy an unairworthy airplane design.

Equivalent safety exception. It's the blanket exception that makes most fly-by-wire controlled aircraft airworthy. The problem here of course, is that you never had enough scrutiny paid to the fly-by-wire implementation to make sure that under no circumstances can the system fail non-operational. This was the subject of much controversy back in the 60's when th 727 was being certified. It required additional workarou…

I don't accept that fly-by-wire airplanes are not FAR 25 airworthy in direct law where zero safe guards are in place. Those planes still have all the aerodynamic stability requirements in all three axis. Control surfaces move consistently with pilot stick input. You can't say the airplane is only airworthy when these safe guards are in place, and as soon as you're in some alternate law that the airplane is flying illegally (unairworthy).

Otherwise, every time such an airplane departs normal law, it should be reported (by plane's computer and pilots) that the flight became unairworthy in-flight. It became an illegal and unsafe flight. How does the mandatory incident reporting requirements get ignored in this case? Or maybe they aren't ignored by the aviation community, and merely go unreported to the public just how often airplanes depart normal law and are illegal flights? That'd be incredible, if it were true.

However, I think what we have in the case of the 737 MAX is altogether different from fly-by-wire. It's not clear to me from available reporting if the airplane, minus MCAS, did conform to FAR 25.173, all of it. If MCAS is required for the plane to conform to this section, and it either fails or is disabled, the pilots need to know the natural behavior of the airplane. They need to know they're in some equivalent of "direct law" (term used in fly-by-wire which the 737 is not) and the different flight behavior in place. And yet they didn't know, we now know they were intentionally not informed or trained.

So we have a case where something, MCAS, is so important that it's required for airworthiness, but has no redundancy, and totally insufficient self testing to know if it's spewing bogus data; and yet failure is not likely enough and/or not likely a big enough of a deal that pilots don't need any difference training for? Yeah I don't buy that shit and some heads absolutely need to roll for that, but at this point I have zero confidence they will. At least, not the correct heads will roll.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#36
post #3

The thinking of "we don't want the system to not work if it's needed" thinking demonstrates a failure to understand the prior probabilities involved. Most of the time the flight conditions will not warrant activation of the MCAS, and apparently the system is sufficiently unreliable/easy to damage that the chances of the system inadvertently triggering is high. But Boeing wanted to be sure that MCAS would always activ…

If there is any decent probability it would fail danger (trigger a nose down as a result of bogus high angle of attack information from a single sensor), that means there is a need for pilots to be aware of both the true unaugmented aerodynamic behavior this (MCAS) system is meant to moderate as well as the function of that augmentation system.

Put another way: Just put another (virtual) button in the airplane and don't tell the pilots about it or what it's masking. It's important we must have this feature to certify, but it's also really important no one knows about it!

If what you're doing is so right, why lie about it? This is a lie of omission, at the very least.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#37
post #35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equivalent safety exception. It's the blanket exception that makes most fly-by-wire controlled aircraft airworthy. The problem here of course, is that you never had enough scrutiny paid to the fly-by-wire implementation to make sure that under no circumstances can the system fail non-operational. This was the subject of much controversy back in the 60's when th 727 was being certified. It required additional workarou…

I don't accept that fly-by-wire airplanes are not FAR 25 airworthy in direct law where zero safe guards are in place. Those planes still have all the aerodynamic stability requirements in all three axis. Control surfaces move consistently with pilot stick input. You can't say the airplane is only airworthy when these safe guards are in place, and as soon as you're in some alternate law that the airplane is flying ill…

>I don't accept that fly-by-wire airplanes are not FAR 25 airworthy in direct law where zero safe guards are in place. Those planes still have all the aerodynamic stability requirements in all three axis. Control surfaces move consistently with pilot stick input. You can't say the airplane is only airworthy when these safe guards are in place, and as soon as you're in some alternate law that the airplane is flying illegally (unairworthy).

I absolutely hope that all fly-by wire aircraft meet minimum airworthyness standards in their minimum automation state. And I will admit my use of fly-by-wire is specifically constrained to the more general concept of a computer stabilized airframe rather than a more common assumption of it being associated with Airbus' particular implementation of fly-by-wire (I.e. Airbus Control Laws). The point I hope we can both agree on is that if you have an uncertifiable behavior corrected by an automation routine in a flight computer; the criterion of certifiability to be met is that the airworthy aircraft is airframe plus automation; not airframe without automation.

In that sense, there absolutely must be either sufficient redundancy to ensure that a pilot can land before the automation airworthyness is dependent on fails, or there must be enough training that should the automation fail, pilots are prepared to safely recover and land the plane. Neither of those is the case with MAX.

>Otherwise, every time such an airplane departs normal law, it should be reported (by plane's computer and pilots) that the flight became unairworthy in-flight. It became an illegal and unsafe flight. How does the mandatory incident reporting requirements get ignored in this case? Or maybe they aren't ignored by the aviation community, and merely go unreported to the public just how often airplanes depart normal law and are illegal flights? That'd be incredible, if it were true.

Dealing with the issue you describe here is/was a big part of the difference in philosophy between Airbus/Boeing.

With Airbus, they build the plane from the ground up with some degree of minimal automation in mind. These systems are designed to fail-operational, and with gradual decay of automated functionality in mind. I.e; the automation does as much as it can with the information it has available. Once inputs start disappearing, increased reliance on a pilot to replace the envelope protection software starts. An Airbus, to my current level of awareness, will never suffer an automation casualty that renders the frame unairworthy; and any such casualty that happens in flight that turns out to be recoverable in the sense of not resulting in an impact crater should be handled as an in-flight emergency.

With the MAX though, MCAS being disabled means that the aircraft no longer complies in terms of consistent stick force response curves in all requisite flight regimes. No matter how loudly Boeing protests it should never happen in normal flight, the rules are the rules. If it can't wind up turn, and maintain consistent stick force response curves, it shouldn't be flying as a civil transport aircraft. I.e. an MCAS casualty should be considered an in flight emergency.

This means, if you propagate through the fault tree, that AoA sensor malfunction/disagreement means a MAX should not be in the air as a civil transport. This is especially problematic, because unless you were Airbus, AoA sensors have hitherto rarely if ever been considered safety critical devices. So it would not be immediately intuitive to a pilot that a malfunction of an AoA sensor would potentially lead to a reasonable risk of catastrophic loss of the aircraft; at the hands of an undocumented and hidden automation system doubly so.

>It's not clear to me from available reporting if the airplane, minus MCAS, did conform to FAR 25.173

It did not. It failed to comply in terms of stick force response curves. That was why MCAS was created in the first place. To patch that non-compliance.

>So we have a case where something, MCAS, is so important that it's required for airworthiness, but has no redundancy, and totally insufficient self testing to know if it's spewing bogus data; and yet failure is not likely enough and/or not likely a big enough of a deal that pilots don't need any difference training for? Yeah I don't buy that shit and some heads absolutely need to roll for that, but at this point I have zero confidence they will. At least, not the correct heads will roll

Got it in one. The reason behind not training pilot's or making this system's importance clear to the FAA was because Boeing would then be liable for $1,000,000 per aircraft sold to Southwest if the pilots were required to undergo simulator training.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#38
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing still gives the pilots a lot of control over the airplane, compared to Airbus. Airbus has defaulted to fly-by-wire (i.e: the computer has control and the pilot makes suggestions) for planes made since the 1980's.

Airbus doesn't try to hide that fact from its pilots.

Oh, for sure. The person I replied to made it sound like it was always a bad thing (to have a computer in charge), though, and that's certainly not the case.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#39
post #3

The thinking of "we don't want the system to not work if it's needed" thinking demonstrates a failure to understand the prior probabilities involved. Most of the time the flight conditions will not warrant activation of the MCAS, and apparently the system is sufficiently unreliable/easy to damage that the chances of the system inadvertently triggering is high. But Boeing wanted to be sure that MCAS would always activ…

The real fix is to never fly on a 737 MAX

The plane needs to be refused certification, forcing Boeing to take them all back and scrap them. They need to go back to the drawing board and design a new jet to take its place. If that forces them into bankruptcy, then this should serve as a good lesson about what happens when your company that makes safety-critical products cuts corners and kills people.

Re: MCAS: How 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

#40
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbus doesn't try to hide that fact from its pilots.

Oh, for sure. The person I replied to made it sound like it was always a bad thing (to have a computer in charge), though, and that's certainly not the case.

Having a computer in charge works fine when the computer is designed correctly, with lots of redundancy and the pilots are trained to understand how it works.

This isn't what Boeing did.

Post reply on HN