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We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

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Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#31

Post by pushpop »

wmf wrote: post #6
lgleason wrote: post #2

Battery technology has been, and to a certain degree still is the limiting factor for electric cars...and the fact is that gasoline is still a denser form of energy storage than batteries by volume, weight etc.. I'm saying this as a someone who prefers electrics over ICE...

Nuclear is denser than gasoline but we don't run cars on it. There's a lot more to the discussion than the best technology.

You’re right, otherwise we’d all be powering our cars with with zero point energy reactors.

Clearly feasibility has a big part to play as well and everyone driving around little fission reactors would be ridiculously impractical from both an engineering standpoint, as well as a safety one too. Not to mention it becoming a terrorists wet dream because of all the waste material. (Not that I’m normally one to play the “terrorist” card)

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#32

Post by standardUser »

jacquesm wrote: post #19
wmf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is denser than gasoline but we don't run cars on it. There's a lot more to the discussion than the best technology.

You meant 'there is a lot more to the discussion than the density of the energy carrier'. A nuclear vehicle would be impractical due to waste and risk.

It turns out the same was true for internal combustion engines all along.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#33

Post by chmielewski »

vvanders wrote: post #30
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perhaps a more limiting factor now than then. As the article notes most EVs at the turn of the century had a range of 40-70 miles. The model T of around 1910, ten years later, had a range of about 90. Earlier ICE cars were down nearer EVs. A century ago battery and ICE technology were not that far apart. i.e. both fairly primitive. If electrics had been chosen and had 100 years of continual minor incremental imp…

I've had the same thought about rotary motors, they're interesting beasts and I wonder what we'd see if they had the same R&D investment like we saw in piston engines. Alas I think that ship has sailed, aside from energy density the modern electric VFD wins along a whole range of design constraints(torque, size, latency/traction response, efficiency, etc).

We have seen a significant long-term R&D investment but all the nice rotary engines are in prop planes.

Edit: since you mention a ship, some use large opposed-pistol Diesel engines (two oppositely meeting pistons around the combustion chamber per cylinder which also allows the cylinder to be much wider)... don’t see these in either planes or cars... Hydrogen power?—- Hydrogen is difficult to keep contained because it escapes through anything over time unless we put heavy ceramic tanks in our cars.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#34

Post by ProfessorLayton »

Swizec wrote: post #17
wmf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole point of the article that ICE was not way better and racing is a harmful distraction?

I have strong doubts about both those claims. Depends on what you want your car for, of course, but how do batteries of the time stack up to ICE cars in terms of range and durability? If memory serves, until very recently, most consumer rechargable batteries would basically stop holding charge after 2 or 3 years. Was that better for bigger batteries? I don't know ... but it would suck to have to buy a new car battery…

Battery durability has to do with the battery management system itself as much as it is about the chemistry. Consumer devices did and still do stop holding a usable charge because they batteries on portable devices are deep cycled 100%-0% (Or near zero) on a regular basis. This greatly reduces a battery's lifespan.

A properly managed car battery won't be kept at 100% charge level, and will definitely not be discharged down to 0%.

Car HV batteries are kept at 80-40% (Varies by chemistry) state of charge to prolong battery life. A Prius can go hundreds of thousands of miles on their original battery, and have been around for over 20 years.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#35

Post by syockit »

jerrysievert wrote: post #11
wmf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is denser than gasoline but we don't run cars on it. There's a lot more to the discussion than the best technology.

not for lack of trying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon but there are a lot of reasons why it never made it into production.

Interesting that the concept is based on steam engine. Would there be a way to recondense the steam for reuse, or did they plan to just release all of them? Then they would need to run on water, much like the steam locomotives of the past.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#36

Post by soperj »

lgleason wrote: post #2

Battery technology has been, and to a certain degree still is the limiting factor for electric cars...and the fact is that gasoline is still a denser form of energy storage than batteries by volume, weight etc.. I'm saying this as a someone who prefers electrics over ICE...

Given that they were both range limited at the time, it was more likely the time to fill that had an impact.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#37

Post by smileysteve »

chmielewski wrote: post #33
vvanders wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the same thought about rotary motors, they're interesting beasts and I wonder what we'd see if they had the same R&D investment like we saw in piston engines. Alas I think that ship has sailed, aside from energy density the modern electric VFD wins along a whole range of design constraints(torque, size, latency/traction response, efficiency, etc).

We have seen a significant long-term R&D investment but all the nice rotary engines are in prop planes. Edit: since you mention a ship, some use large opposed-pistol Diesel engines (two oppositely meeting pistons around the combustion chamber per cylinder which also allows the cylinder to be much wider)... don’t see these in either planes or cars... Hydrogen power?—- Hydrogen is difficult to keep contained because it…

It's hard to tell, but op may be talking about Wankel rotary motors.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#38

Post by oblib »

whenchamenia wrote: post #21
wmf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole point of the article that ICE was not way better and racing is a harmful distraction?

Racing has led the development of more economical, lighter weight, and more powerful cars that handle better and stop faster. No other development method has made such rapid progress in automotive technology.

I'd have to agree with that. I'll add that "customized" cars, mostly built in small shops and home garages, have also had a huge influence in the evolution of automobiles.

For example, in the `50s custom car builders were "sectioning" the bodies and "Z-ing" the frames to make cars thinner and lower to the ground. By the `60s all the big manufactures were building cars styled like that.

But racers have had a huge influence on mass production cars and still do. One simple example of that is the coolant overflow tank. As I recall it was small circle track racer that made that mod to his race car and encouraged other car owners at the track to install them because when cars overheated and blew coolant on the track it caused delays in the races. If I recall the story right he had to sue the car companies to enforce his patent and collect a royalty.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#39

Post by soperj »

Causality1 wrote: post #3

They could've worked in cities. Lead-acid batteries, though, have never had the energy/weight ratio necessary for the type of long-range driving necessary outside of highly urbanized areas.

And we would have all been better off. Cities would have been much more livable, and walkable, and people could commute by train/plane.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#40

Post by Gibbon1 »

Causality1 wrote: post #3

They could've worked in cities. Lead-acid batteries, though, have never had the energy/weight ratio necessary for the type of long-range driving necessary outside of highly urbanized areas.

I think people tend to forget that before 1900-1940 if you were outside of the city; no electricity.
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