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Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

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Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#31

Post by hrktb »

bitcurious wrote: post #16
pg_bot wrote: post #8

It's perceived as a failure because it was a failure. If anything, the US is still too restrictive when it comes to alcohol policy. I hope we see the drinking age lowered back to 18, and remove most geographic and time restrictions on the purchase of alcohol. (i.e. Dry counties, purchasing on Sundays) It's funny, I don't see too many people championing the war on drugs as a public policy success.

A higher drinking age has been shown to lower drunk driving fatalities. https://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20080702/age-21-drinkin...

Drunk driving fatalities is only a part of the whole picture though.

For instance liver disease deaths were decreasing until 2008 [1] Would/was lowering the drinking age have an impact ? I don’t know, but I just think there are wide and long term effects on these decisions, and judging by a single metric would not be fair.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0...

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#32

Post by chrisseaton »

baudehlo wrote: post #7

Are there statistics that compare other countries? I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. Attempting to artificially force age 21 as the limit is foolish, creates de-facto criminals, especially in universities, and forces adults who want to try drinking to have to hide it. This isn’t a sane policy.

21 seems absolutely crazy to me. Three years into adulthood! Three years into dating and relationships where you can’t have a glass of wine with dinner on a date? Maybe it’s unhealthy but I can’t imagine the first three years of university without going out for a drink in a pub or bar at all. Are people graduating from high school and not able to celebrate with a glass of Champagne? If you don’t go to university are you going to work socials as a full adult having to explain that you can’t drink yet?

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#33

Post by caymanjim »

da_chicken wrote: post #17
baudehlo wrote: post #7

Are there statistics that compare other countries? I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. Attempting to artificially force age 21 as the limit is foolish, creates de-facto criminals, especially in universities, and forces adults who want to try drinking to have to hide it. This isn’t a sane policy.

> I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. I believe that's a consequence of those countries having a better relationship with alcohol. That is to say, if a country's alcohol culture is healthier, it supports a lower drinking age. You can't synthesize a better alcohol culture by lowering the drinking age, howev…

I'm old enough to remember when New Jersey had a drinking age of 18. They lowered it from 21 to 18 in the early 70s (almost certainly a result of "old enough to fight in Vietnam but not old enough to drink" movements). They raised it to 19 in 1980, and to 21 in 1983. I was only 10 then.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimu...

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#34

Post by foota »

chrisseaton wrote: post #32
baudehlo wrote: post #7

Are there statistics that compare other countries? I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. Attempting to artificially force age 21 as the limit is foolish, creates de-facto criminals, especially in universities, and forces adults who want to try drinking to have to hide it. This isn’t a sane policy.

21 seems absolutely crazy to me. Three years into adulthood! Three years into dating and relationships where you can’t have a glass of wine with dinner on a date? Maybe it’s unhealthy but I can’t imagine the first three years of university without going out for a drink in a pub or bar at all. Are people graduating from high school and not able to celebrate with a glass of Champagne? If you don’t go to university are…

Fwiw, you don't have to explain, everyone understands.

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#35

Post by xfitm3 »

pixl97 wrote: post #29
headsoup wrote: post #3

Interesting that the Alcohol lobby is only mentioned once and the big industry players not mentioned. Surely their actions were fundamental in orchestrating the pushback? Considering the emergence of 'PR' during the same period, alcohol would have remained well supported. Much as with drugs, total prohibition is not the answer for adult problems, but a balance of education, taxes and regulation should work to reduce…

Eh, you're underestimating the attraction of vice. Trying to say it's the industry that says alcohol is a right completely neglects the enormous black markets for illegal drugs that don't have rights for. Education only goes so far, as DARE shows you must tell the truth and not embellish it or people neglect your whole message. Push taxes too high and you create a black market too.

DARE is a failure. As is the entire war on drugs in America.

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#36

Post by [deleted] »

baudehlo wrote: post #25
da_chicken wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. I believe that's a consequence of those countries having a better relationship with alcohol. That is to say, if a country's alcohol culture is healthier, it supports a lower drinking age. You can't synthesize a better alcohol culture by lowering the drinking age, howev…

It’s an interesting reply but your conclusion feels like a stretch to me. Mostly because that’s a very long time ago. Access to information has massively changed since then. I feel like saying America can’t have a good relationship with alcohol is a cop out.

[deleted]

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#38

Post by sfRattan »

barry-cotter wrote: post #23
vichu wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to hear. I've heard the opposite in that in dry counties in the US the incidence of alcohol related driving accidents is 3x that of wet counties. A quick look at the Wikipedia[0] article corroborates this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county#Traveling_to_purcha...

The causality could go Dry County -> Lots of Drink Driving (Unhealthy relationship with alcohol) Or it could be Lots of Drink Driving (Unhealthy relationship with alcohol) -> Dry County You’d need to do historical research to see if the bad relationship preceded the alcohol ban. A first pass would be historical murder rates seeing as drunkenness leads to violence, which leads to deaths.

Or it could go:

Dry county -> social drinkers must drive to the bar in the next county over, or even several counties over -> drunk drivers from the dry county spend more time and distance on roads than they would otherwise -> higher instance of drunk driving related accidents in the dry county.

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#39

Post by dragonwriter »

chrisseaton wrote: post #32
baudehlo wrote: post #7

Are there statistics that compare other countries? I have found in my personal experience that countries that actually have lower minimum drinking ages seem to have better relationships with alcohol. Attempting to artificially force age 21 as the limit is foolish, creates de-facto criminals, especially in universities, and forces adults who want to try drinking to have to hide it. This isn’t a sane policy.

21 seems absolutely crazy to me. Three years into adulthood! Three years into dating and relationships where you can’t have a glass of wine with dinner on a date? Maybe it’s unhealthy but I can’t imagine the first three years of university without going out for a drink in a pub or bar at all. Are people graduating from high school and not able to celebrate with a glass of Champagne? If you don’t go to university are…

> 21 seems absolutely crazy to me. Three years into adulthood! Three years into dating and relationships

Perhaps occasionally the second, but legal adulthood and the beginning of dating aren't things that are all that normally linked.

> Maybe it’s unhealthy but I can’t imagine the first three years of university without going out for a drink in a pub or bar at all.

Neurotoxins are not exactly an essential companion piece to education. Also, there's a pretty big gap between not being able to do something in practice and not being legally allowed to do it. Fake IDs that are sufficient to pass casual review in a drinking establishment are not uncommon for American youth.

> Are people graduating from high school and not able to celebrate with a glass of Champagne?

People are graduating that would t be allowed to do that with a drinking age of 18, too.

> If you don’t go to university are you going to work socials as a full adult having to explain that you can’t drink yet?

No, because everyone understands, and “work socials” with alcohol are a far from universal thing in the US, anyhow.

Re: Reconsidering whether Prohibition was a failure

#40

Post by dragonwriter »

xfitm3 wrote: post #35
pixl97 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, you're underestimating the attraction of vice. Trying to say it's the industry that says alcohol is a right completely neglects the enormous black markets for illegal drugs that don't have rights for. Education only goes so far, as DARE shows you must tell the truth and not embellish it or people neglect your whole message. Push taxes too high and you create a black market too.

DARE is a failure. As is the entire war on drugs in America.

> DARE is a failure.

Studies of DARE have shown it's a success at producing more positive images of law enforcement among children exposed to it (they've also shown it has no effect on its nominal goal of reducing drug abuse, but do you think it keeps going because no one cares that it's a failure at it's real goal or because it's real goal was never the nominal goal in the first place?)

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