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You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

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Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#31
post #20
post #11

In my experience, the biggest issue I run into is targeted botnet brute force attacks. In cases like these, someone loads up a huge botnet, a downloaded list of hacked usernames and passwords, and tries every single combination hoping to find a reused username/password combination. In these cases, it is almost always extremely targeted. Log correlation has helped quite a bit, but it is still very painful since they a…

and you can easily count the number of failed attempts from a particular IP, and just show captcha for those over X failures, rather than every login. Normal users don't fail _that_ many times, and so are non-the-wiser.

As the commenter said, they rotate IPs. It is not that easy. I've also been on the other side of a sophisticated attack like this. The really savvy adversaries do the following, at least:

1. Rotate through several thousand to several hundred thousand noncontiguous, geographically distributed, residential IP addresses,

2. Associate each IP address with a single user agent and suite of cookies,

3. Associate each IP address with a particular target username,

4. Only attempt a few incorrect logins at a time, and a somewhat random (albeit realistic) number at that, within a given time interval,

5. Use random, apparently human delays between successive requests,

6. Issue requests using extremely high fidelity simulacra of web browsers, customized to the sequence and structure of HTTP requests on the website.

When the stakes are high this is the kind of opposition you'll get. Bank account takeover, social media account takeover, ticket scalping, automated sneaker buying, financial research, market research, etc.

Recaptcha introduces unpleasant user friction, but it usually works well. To invert a popular turn of phrase, it makes stopping simple attackers easy and hard attackers possible. The most sophisticated attackers will still lease reputable Google accounts and mechanical turk time to bypass Recaptcha challenges, but it will be expensive for them.

Technical sophistication is only one dimension of this game. The other is making adversaries spend more money than they can gain from being successful.

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#32
post #20
post #11

In my experience, the biggest issue I run into is targeted botnet brute force attacks. In cases like these, someone loads up a huge botnet, a downloaded list of hacked usernames and passwords, and tries every single combination hoping to find a reused username/password combination. In these cases, it is almost always extremely targeted. Log correlation has helped quite a bit, but it is still very painful since they a…

and you can easily count the number of failed attempts from a particular IP, and just show captcha for those over X failures, rather than every login. Normal users don't fail _that_ many times, and so are non-the-wiser.

[deleted]

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#33

Microsoft’s implementation is the worse. I sometimes have a hard time deciphering the captcha. Why do they need that in an iOS app? Are robots emulating people from an iPhone?

> Are robots emulating people from an iPhone?

Many of the more sophisticated ones prefer emulating mobile application requests to web requests, so yes.

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#34
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and you can easily count the number of failed attempts from a particular IP, and just show captcha for those over X failures, rather than every login. Normal users don't fail _that_ many times, and so are non-the-wiser.

As the commenter said, they rotate IPs. It is not that easy. I've also been on the other side of a sophisticated attack like this. The really savvy adversaries do the following, at least: 1. Rotate through several thousand to several hundred thousand noncontiguous, geographically distributed, residential IP addresses, 2. Associate each IP address with a single user agent and suite of cookies, 3. Associate each IP add…

> automated sneaker buying

???

Please ELI5. I mean, why are sales bad, even if automated? Are they using stolen cards?

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#36

I wish Hacker News didn't use it. It's a PITA logging in! I don't see it when I'm in the U.S. but when I'm overseas...

From a French IP that usually gets flagged by everybody as potentially a robot, I see exactly 0 JS on the HN login form.

Are you sure it is HN that uses ReCAPTCHA?

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#37
post #8

ReCAPTCHA has crossed into the domain of cattle-corralling users and thus should be considered harmful. If the system decides it doesn't like you (most likely because you're "too anonymous," but you don't really know) you will be presented with slower-loading images to click and more click-all-the-things rounds. To pretend this is about slowing down bots is disingenuous as best. On top of that, usage of ReCAPTCHA per…

There should be an open source captcha solution where all the labeled images can be used to develop a model available freely to the public.

Y'know, this would be a great project for Mozilla, if they have the resources for it. They're already doing that crowdsourced voice training data thing.

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#38
post #16

"Many developers vastly over-estimate the likelihood of customized spam." I run 100s of small random low traffic low priority sites. Without some form of form control, the ALL get hit with customized and random other crap spam. I don't have decent experience with many things in life, but I can say this is one topic I have YEARS of experience with. I've never over-estimated the amount of any type of spam any form can…

Have an input element that can't be seen. If it has something in it, ignore the submit. Works for all my sites so far.

It will also ignore people who use browser's autofill form function. Realized this after receiving a dozen complaints.

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#39

Aren't hidden form elements are a major issue for accessibility? Admittedly, so is ReCaptcha, so the trade-off may be necessary as much as it sucks. But, it's probably at least worth a mention?

They are definitely an issue for accessibility. I make sure to put "Hey! Don't put anything in this field!" as a placeholder.

Re: You probably don’t need ReCAPTCHA

#40
post #39

Aren't hidden form elements are a major issue for accessibility? Admittedly, so is ReCaptcha, so the trade-off may be necessary as much as it sucks. But, it's probably at least worth a mention?

They are definitely an issue for accessibility. I make sure to put "Hey! Don't put anything in this field!" as a placeholder.

That sounds like something bots could easily adapt to if the practice become widespread.
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