The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy • Hacker News Board

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#31

Post by TheOperator » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 5:53 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #15

mushufasa wrote: post #10

An author once came and spoke to my environmental studies class. Of the Club of Rome, he said "Fascinating ideas. They might be right. But try getting elected by promising a shrinking economy." Yeah, not gonna happen. Best to treat growth as a given and work around it, imho.

> "Fascinating ideas. They might be right. But try getting elected by promising a shrinking economy." It sounds like the problem is democracy. What we need is a BDFL.

Pol Pot for dictator!

We need to get rid of the literate classes... Like the guy reading this... And the guy wr-

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#32

Post by lpcam33 » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 5:54 AM UTC

mushufasa wrote: post #10

An author once came and spoke to my environmental studies class. Of the Club of Rome, he said "Fascinating ideas. They might be right. But try getting elected by promising a shrinking economy." Yeah, not gonna happen. Best to treat growth as a given and work around it, imho.

It could work if the promise was to give people time instead of a 9 to 5 shitty job, and assuring equality through a Universal Basic Income. That income could be financed with taxes on externalities. Taxing externalities would also benefit the local and more sustainable economy with more decent jobs.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#33

Post by BrandonM » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

smadge wrote: post #25

hyko wrote: post #7

What size ‘should’ the global economy be?

The size that ensures every person a comfortable lifestyle while maintaining a healthy and sustainable biosphere.

Is the human species every really comfortable?

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#34

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

antisemiotic wrote: post #21

ralph84 wrote: post #8

What's stopping them? There's tons of empty land in the world. Go find a stream in the forest and live a sustenance-level life. Oh, they want everyone else to be miserable too.

That's what Ted Kaczynski tried before he got driven out of his cabin in the woods.

He also sent a few bombs. Without those I think he could have lived his life in peace.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#35

Post by zwkrt » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:00 AM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #28

Why not commit suicide then? Serious question I'm wondering what their rationalization is.

Even though this is the most misanthropic comment I've ever seen on HN and I'm appalled you would consider writing it, I'll play along! Killing the only people advocating for their movement would make the movement very unlikely to succeed.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#36

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

jryan49 wrote: post #17

rebuilder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, the specifics are certainly open to ridicule. But I don't think you can dismiss the idea that we need to find a way to live without economic growth. I think we still have room for some growth, but not for long. If we keep to the status quo, waste heat from energy production alone will grow to disastrous levels within a few centuries.

The world's population is still growing, economy must grow or there is less of everything for everyone.

This is very un-evenly distributed growth however. Developed nations are at or below sustenance level birth rates and largely rely on immigration to break even. As countries develop, birth rates decline -- this is well documented and incredibly striking. Check out this graph of birth rate vs. HDI [1]. As the rest of the world develops, the curve will invert and turn negative, it's just a matter of time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#/media/Fi...

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#37

Post by 01100011 » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

rebuilder wrote: post #13

You can ridicule the specifics, but the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth. I see no reason to think the former is possible, so that leaves the latter. The alternative is some kind of calamity.

> you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources

Hasn't technology generally been heading in this direction? It seems we are constantly doing more with less. If it keeps up, and we slowdown procreation, I see no reason why it won't drive resource usage down long term.

I mean, I completely disagree with the premise that we must consume non-renewable resources to generate wealth, but assuming it is true I think we've come a long way in changing that and the future looks even better.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#38

Post by chewz » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:16 AM UTC

It is elites a way of saying that most working class is becoming disposable for the elites. Why let them idle? Better just dispose them for good.

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#39

Post by dwaltrip » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

rebuilder wrote: post #16

barry-cotter wrote: post #14

This idea is a kind of calamity. They’re proposing to increase poverty worldwide when we haven’t even managed to get everybody over $2 a day of consumption, or bring child mortality down to rates that would have been acceptable in the US in 1950.

Like I said, the specifics are certainly open to ridicule. But I don't think you can dismiss the idea that we need to find a way to live without economic growth. I think we still have room for some growth, but not for long. If we keep to the status quo, waste heat from energy production alone will grow to disastrous levels within a few centuries.

The universe, heck even the solar system, is pretty big...

Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy

#40

Post by TheOperator » Sat, Jun 01, 2019, 6:21 AM UTC

zwkrt wrote: post #35

TheOperator wrote: post #28

Why not commit suicide then? Serious question I'm wondering what their rationalization is.

Even though this is the most misanthropic comment I've ever seen on HN and I'm appalled you would consider writing it, I'll play along! Killing the only people advocating for their movement would make the movement very unlikely to succeed.

See the whole "while it would make the movement unlikely to succeed" is what I hear from politicians explaining why they don't refuse corporate donations like pledging to fight corporate greed. These people are PART of growth...

>Even though this is the most misanthropic comment I've ever seen on HN and I'm appalled you would consider writing it, I'll play along!

This modest proposal being pushed to shrink the economy would ultimately result in millions of deaths as a direct consequence. Its not a big leap to be in favor of causing death directly instead of through effective democide. I'm wondering what their position on human life is.