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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

vice.com

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#31

Post by sgift »

avar wrote: post #26
sgift wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

Having grown up in Iceland where the police don't even carry guns I'd be very suspicious of this specific interaction. I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a police officer on the street, or chat with them if I was routinely detained at a traffic stop or whatever. But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they'r…

> But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they're concerned about you personally they'll just ask to talk to you in a place they wouldn't otherwise need a search warrant signed by a judge to enter.

"Their first ask is to come into your house" is based on a quote Vice took out of context (and then blew up into a nice big sub-headline to give it a bit more 'emotional weight').

The second part .. if the police is concerned about you they ask to talk to you where they meet you. For the type of person where this intervention happens this will probably be their home most of the time.

I always wonder where people get this idea that the police (and law enforcement in general) are all crooks breaking/bending the law to get you, but will have a problem to get a warrant if that's really what they want. Maybe too many crime shows?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#32

Post by raxxorrax »

lofties wrote: post #7

We tend to complain when failure by communication between social services and law enforcement results in unnecessary deaths. Now Canadian law enforcement has started a program that brings this synergy and we raise concerns about our privacy. Although the concerns about privacy are grounded; I would love to see the evaluation of this program after one year. I believe that if we want to protect those most at risk in ou…

Cynical view: As with surveillance laws, these kind of control is never rolled back, so we could skip the evaluation.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#33

Post by goodcanadian »

emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

You are generally free to decline to talk to the police. You definitely do not have to invite them into your home. Your rights around police interaction are very similar to those in the US.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#34

Post by mcv »

goodcanadian wrote: post #33
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

You are generally free to decline to talk to the police. You definitely do not have to invite them into your home. Your rights around police interaction are very similar to those in the US.

At the same time, I would hope that Canadian police is a bit more trustworthy and trusted than US police.

I certainly wouldn't want that kind of visit from police officers whose primary concern is to find a reason to arrest or shoot you, but if police is honestly trying to help and prevent problems, it's an entirely different matter.

Police culture, policy and accountability matters a lot in a case like this.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#35

Post by mcv »

taneq wrote: post #12
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

> The police are not your friends.

This is a massive problem in itself. The police should be your friend. When it's not, that in itself is a massive condemnation of the way the police functions.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#36

Post by kstenerud »

cperciva wrote: post #13
tastroder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really? The article seems relatively clear that there are some problems regarding consent in this whole apparatus. I'm torn on the article. The Canadian government isn't China and we have had quite a few pretty public cases here in Germany where lack of inter-agency coordination led to serious harm in the context of our CPS equivalent. OTOH, at least from that article, this program doesn't seem to get the ove…

Yes you can. This program is being driven by a desire to identify potential future victims of crime, not a desire to identify future criminals.

"Information about people believed to be “at risk” of becoming criminals or victims of harm is shared between civilian agencies and police and is added to the database when a person is being evaluated for a rapid intervention intended to lower their risk levels. Interventions can range from a door knock and a chat to forced hospitalization or arrest."

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#37

Post by jeena »

sgift wrote: post #31
avar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in Iceland where the police don't even carry guns I'd be very suspicious of this specific interaction. I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a police officer on the street, or chat with them if I was routinely detained at a traffic stop or whatever. But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they'r…

> But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they're concerned about you personally they'll just ask to talk to you in a place they wouldn't otherwise need a search warrant signed by a judge to enter. "Their first ask is to come into your house" is based on a quote Vice took out of context (and then blew up…

I guess from talks in law schools like this: "Don't Talk to the Police" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#38

Post by clouddrover »

sgift wrote: post #18
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

> Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

False in my experience. Maybe I haven't found the right countries.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#39

Post by clouddrover »

sgift wrote: post #31
avar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in Iceland where the police don't even carry guns I'd be very suspicious of this specific interaction. I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a police officer on the street, or chat with them if I was routinely detained at a traffic stop or whatever. But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they'r…

> But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they're concerned about you personally they'll just ask to talk to you in a place they wouldn't otherwise need a search warrant signed by a judge to enter. "Their first ask is to come into your house" is based on a quote Vice took out of context (and then blew up…

> I always wonder where people get this idea that the police (and law enforcement in general) are all crooks breaking/bending the law to get you

Bitter experience. Never underestimate the dishonesty of a cop.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#40

Post by vbuwivbiu »

goodcanadian wrote: post #33
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

You are generally free to decline to talk to the police. You definitely do not have to invite them into your home. Your rights around police interaction are very similar to those in the US.

police add to database "NEGATIVE_BEHAVIOR: declined invitation into home"
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