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Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

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Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#31

Post by new2628 »

ixtli wrote: post #10

I think its very important to engage with the fact that this is something China can do because of what we in the west deem unacceptably "authoritarian" governance. This effect isn't entirely due to people's starry-eyed conservationism: the government arrests people and closes factories that violate these ecological goals. By way of example, this happened a few weeks ago and is very difficult to find coverage of in en…

This resonates with what happened in Eastern Europe. Until the fall of communism nature (by and large) thrived. Despite some bone-headed industrial projects, hunting sprees of the ruling class, etc., a remarkable level of biodiversity was preserved and there was no widespread poaching or deforestation. In comparison, the wild capitalism of the last 30 years and the opening up of the market to (more efficient) international players meant a death-penalty for forests and wildlife.

EDIT: downvoters, please argue for the opposite if you disagree.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#32

Post by naravara »

mc32 wrote: post #19
ixtli wrote: post #10

I think its very important to engage with the fact that this is something China can do because of what we in the west deem unacceptably "authoritarian" governance. This effect isn't entirely due to people's starry-eyed conservationism: the government arrests people and closes factories that violate these ecological goals. By way of example, this happened a few weeks ago and is very difficult to find coverage of in en…

On the other hand, India is more federated and much less centralized (nor authoritarian) and they’ve achieved progress in this area too!

It is worth noting though, that just planting trees all over the place isn't the same as building and sustaining a complex forest/jungle ecosystem. They may be planting a lot, but the habitat destruction is still a serious concern.

And it's not just an India/China thing too. The US also paves over new and moderate growth forests so they will never develop into old growth ones.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#33

Post by pm90 »

whatshisface wrote: post #22
pm90 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....And it’s currently run by a fossil fuel lobbyist. While I’m not arguing for the US to not be a democracy, it’s important to accept that democracies are not perfect, have many flaws and require constant vigilance to ensure the knobs of State power don’t end up in the hands of incompetent idiots (as they are in the current administration).

I don't see why you couldn't have a fossil fuel lobbyist as a dictator, or even as a dictatorial appointment motivated by the same reasons that got the current EPA head appointed.

It’s a good question. Notably, most dictatorships are this way and rarely do we find benevolent totalitarian regimes (Park Chung Hee, Lee Kuan Yew etc).

The CPC is different in that at its core it still seems to a) believe in science and b) wants to uplift China. The bargain is that CPC will take China down a path of prosperity while suspending democratic freedoms. It’s entirely possible they don’t hold their end of the bargain, but it would likely lead to social instability on a massive scale.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#34

Post by _bxg1 »

ixtli wrote: post #10

I think its very important to engage with the fact that this is something China can do because of what we in the west deem unacceptably "authoritarian" governance. This effect isn't entirely due to people's starry-eyed conservationism: the government arrests people and closes factories that violate these ecological goals. By way of example, this happened a few weeks ago and is very difficult to find coverage of in en…

And what about India? As far as I know it doesn't have an authoritarian government. Europe is also democratic and has been a world leader in environmental policy. It's really just the United States that has the problem.

I don't think the key difference is authoritarian vs. democratic, but "prudent" vs. "proudly ignorant". America has some deep, deep-rooted cultural problems that are really at the heart of our environmental failings. Nearly half of our country still thinks global warming is a conspiracy. Some here in the south modify their trucks to produce more pollution as some kind of twisted badge of honor. You see them belch smog across the freeway like it's 1920. It's really a very specifically American complex.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#35

Post by _bxg1 »

pm90 wrote: post #17
whatshisface wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't take a dictator to plant trees, just government spending. In fact the EPA has done a lot without eliminating democracy in the US.

....And it’s currently run by a fossil fuel lobbyist. While I’m not arguing for the US to not be a democracy, it’s important to accept that democracies are not perfect, have many flaws and require constant vigilance to ensure the knobs of State power don’t end up in the hands of incompetent idiots (as they are in the current administration).

has done, not is doing

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#36

Post by ForHackernews »

umadon wrote: post #18
ixtli wrote: post #10

I think its very important to engage with the fact that this is something China can do because of what we in the west deem unacceptably "authoritarian" governance. This effect isn't entirely due to people's starry-eyed conservationism: the government arrests people and closes factories that violate these ecological goals. By way of example, this happened a few weeks ago and is very difficult to find coverage of in en…

"the government arrests people and seizes factories that violate these ecological goals" Why isn't this a good thing? Shouldn't people who ignore ecological laws be punished? And anyway, how do you propose to fix climate change without massive, centralized planning, including punishment of those who subvert such a fix for personal gain? Also, in your link, the plants are closed, not seized.

> And anyway, how do you propose to fix climate change without massive, centralized planning, including punishment of those who subvert such a fix for personal gain?

Tax tax tax. Price in the cost of externalities and let the market sort it out. Market forces allow society-wide coordination without heavy-handed central planing.

Obviously you'll still need to prosecute tax cheats.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#38

Post by jessaustin »

ixtli wrote: post #10

I think its very important to engage with the fact that this is something China can do because of what we in the west deem unacceptably "authoritarian" governance. This effect isn't entirely due to people's starry-eyed conservationism: the government arrests people and closes factories that violate these ecological goals. By way of example, this happened a few weeks ago and is very difficult to find coverage of in en…

What actions do you propose in order to "engage with" this "fact"? Are there factories in Western nations that would be seized by more "authoritarian" governments? Can we write some letters to get those factories shuttered without buying into more authoritarianism too?

In fact it seems quite normal that polluters would be punished. When the authorities charged with environmental enforcement are accountable to the populace, polluters are punished for that reason. When they are not accountable, polluters are punished for other reasons, which reasons are probably more closely aligned with the interests of those authorities than with those of the populace. It's great that China no longer imports trash, and it's great that they've closed down some polluters, but they're pretty late to this party. Far freer nations managed to accomplish this a long time ago. Maybe China should copy them instead?

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#39

Post by Dirlewanger »

baddox wrote: post #26
umadon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the government arrests people and seizes factories that violate these ecological goals" Why isn't this a good thing? Shouldn't people who ignore ecological laws be punished? And anyway, how do you propose to fix climate change without massive, centralized planning, including punishment of those who subvert such a fix for personal gain? Also, in your link, the plants are closed, not seized.

I don’t understand. Why would central planning be required to fix climate change? How about just charge greenhouse gas emitters so that there are no longer externalities? I don’t see any reason to turn to central planning, unless one just uses that term to refer to any regulations involving the economy.

It may unfortunately be the only way. We live in a capitalist society where the only reason any sort of enterprise occurs is because there's a profit to be made. The US government just doesn't give a shit to correct negative externalities via smart regulation because it's in bed with all the big actors in most industries.

Re: Nasa Says Earth Is Greener Today Than 20 Years Ago Thanks to China, India

#40

Post by umadon »

baddox wrote: post #26
umadon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the government arrests people and seizes factories that violate these ecological goals" Why isn't this a good thing? Shouldn't people who ignore ecological laws be punished? And anyway, how do you propose to fix climate change without massive, centralized planning, including punishment of those who subvert such a fix for personal gain? Also, in your link, the plants are closed, not seized.

I don’t understand. Why would central planning be required to fix climate change? How about just charge greenhouse gas emitters so that there are no longer externalities? I don’t see any reason to turn to central planning, unless one just uses that term to refer to any regulations involving the economy.

I don't see the US government (for one) having the teeth or even really desire to enforce any regulations absent a huge change.
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