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Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

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Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#31

Post by archi42 »

geocar wrote: post #24
archi42 wrote: post #19

> a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while employed. This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff done during work time. So the stuff I come up with and the code I write at the office on my workstation is automatically owned by my employee. That's fine, because if it wasn't, that would cause all kinds of legal trouble should I ever leave the company. B…

> But if I create things in my free time at home, on my own equipment, then that's MINE, and I might start a company from it That's not entirely accurate: You're required to submit it to your employer if it could be related to your work, see especially §18 (1-2) and §19 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/BJNR007560957.ht...

Oha, thanks. That's actually repeated in my contract.

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#33

Post by raphaelj »

Kaotique wrote: post #22
WestCoastJustin wrote: post #7

Do not do anything non-work related on company equipment! Ever, for any reason, seriously don't do it! Do not even research the idea! Assume the company is logging everything. They likely are. Honestly, I'd just focus on work and learn if you are just starting out. Learn as much as you can while employed by other folks (they are basically paying you to learn). Learn as much about the business your company is in too.…

I find that first advice a bit paranoid. What country are you from where it is normal that a company is logging and spying on its employers? I have a company laptop but there is no logging whatsoever. Outside office hours I use this laptop to do personal stuff all the time.

Indeed.

Also, I remember that when the GDPR got implemented in the EU, I had to agree on a new contract amendment in which the company legally had to list all the data that was collected on its employees (e.g. emails, personal info like age, address and income, ...).

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#34

Post by stingraycharles »

archi42 wrote: post #28
stingraycharles wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff done during work time. This is a very dangerous attitude. I'm from The Netherlands, consulted a lawyer on this matter, and she confirmed it was definitely an issue. I proceeded to make it explicit in the contract that it only covers IP created during work time and/or on company hardware. What you're saying is definitely understandable, but i…

Wow, okay. I honestly didn't believe that was legally possible - and thanks for pointing out that I'm probably wrong. I checked the wording of my contract, and regarding "my employer has ownership of my work" it explicitly says "im Rahmen dieses Arbeitsverhältnisses" -> "as part of this employment relationship". So I suppose I'm safe (there is a clause that I have to ask for permission to do side jobs; but I know com…

Right, and it also depends upon your role (I was in a leadership position). Regardless, the law is intentionally vague (“could be related to your work” leaves room for interpretation), and it’s better to get explicit permission.

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#35

Post by m12k »

a-saleh wrote: post #26

A.f.a.i.k. while I am not a lawyer, rule of thumb is anything you do * on your own equipment * on your own time can be considered yours. If you want to be extra sure, maybe consider first switching from employment to consulting? A friend of mine was primarily a consultant in pc-game-marketing space and then he founded a company, slowly building out a product. On the other hand, I get that going for consulting gigs ca…

Note that OP writes that they are from a third world country. That means we don't know which jurisdiction applies, but it's not US or anywhere in Europe. So IP and labor laws may be very different from what we would consider normal or fair.

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#36

Post by archi42 »

pizzapill wrote: post #30
archi42 wrote: post #19

> a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while employed. This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff done during work time. So the stuff I come up with and the code I write at the office on my workstation is automatically owned by my employee. That's fine, because if it wasn't, that would cause all kinds of legal trouble should I ever leave the company. B…

Germany is a very special case. AFAIK you can't lose the right to things you create here, that means the "copyright" (Urheberrecht) of code you create will always belong to you. You can't sell it or lose it in any other way. Your employer "only" has the right to use it without limitations. I would not draw conclusions based on the situation in Germany, since the law could be wildly different.

As per the contract the copyright of my work goes to my employer, and I have no copyright to (on?) it.

The difference is that I am not allowed to reuse that work somewhere else (e.g. my own project) with my contract, but from what you say that would always be possible. Also what you say means I could always sell work I do on the job to someone else, e.g. a direct competitor. So I am not sure if that's really right ;-)

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#38

Post by lcabral »

archi42 wrote: post #19

> a bunch of contract clauses that basically lets the company own all IP while employed. This is default here as well (Germany), but I only interpret this as stuff done during work time. So the stuff I come up with and the code I write at the office on my workstation is automatically owned by my employee. That's fine, because if it wasn't, that would cause all kinds of legal trouble should I ever leave the company. B…

yes, I think I had the same type of clauses (haven't read my contract in a long time) So I did clear out that with my current (to be at the time) direct manager and that was the consensus. So my advice for the original question would be to clear that with the (future) manager on what those clauses do indeed mean. And I don't feel that question is endangering getting the job in any way... I feel nowadays many people have side projects that they have not intention of relinquishing of its rights even if nothing more that a side hobby. So managers are probably asked those question all the time. PS: But I wouldn't go straight the manager and state that I'm planing on start my own business wight at the same time I start working for him... That probably raises the flag that you will not be 100% committed and might leave in a short period. I would just bring it up as "side projects".

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#39

Post by pizzapill »

archi42 wrote: post #36
pizzapill wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a very special case. AFAIK you can't lose the right to things you create here, that means the "copyright" (Urheberrecht) of code you create will always belong to you. You can't sell it or lose it in any other way. Your employer "only" has the right to use it without limitations. I would not draw conclusions based on the situation in Germany, since the law could be wildly different.

As per the contract the copyright of my work goes to my employer, and I have no copyright to (on?) it. The difference is that I am not allowed to reuse that work somewhere else (e.g. my own project) with my contract, but from what you say that would always be possible. Also what you say means I could always sell work I do on the job to someone else, e.g. a direct competitor. So I am not sure if that's really right ;-…

Urheberrecht vs. Verwertungsrechte...

> Copyright should neither be transferable in whole nor in part. Rather, the author should only be able to grant someone else the right to use the work in a certain way.

Nach dem geltenden Recht kann das Urheberrecht als Ganzes und in seinen Teilen (z. B. das Vervielfältigungsrecht, das Aufführungsrecht) abgetreten werden. Nur die aus dem Urheberpersönlichkeitsrecht erwachsenden Befugnisse, wie z. B. das Recht, Entstellungen des Werkes zu verbieten, sind unübertragbar. Der Entwurf sieht - wie das österreichische Recht - von einer derartigen unterschiedlichen Regelung der Übertragbarkeit der einzelnen urheberrechtlichen Befugnisse ab. Das Urheberrecht soll zukünftig weder im ganzen noch teilweise abtretbar sein. Vielmehr soll der Urheber einem anderen nur das Recht einräumen können, das Werk in bestimmter Weise zu nutzen. Das Urheberrecht selbst verbleibt dabei, belastet mit dem Nutzungsrecht, dem Urheber. Hierdurch wird sichergestellt, daß der Urheber auch dann, wenn er die wirtschaftliche Auswertung seines Werkes einem anderen überläßt, stets eine gewisse Kontrolle über das weitere Schicksal seines Werkes behält.

http://www.urheberrecht.org/law/normen/urhg/1965-09-09/mater...

deepl.com english translation:

Under the applicable law, copyright may be assigned in its entirety and in its parts (e.g. the right to reproduce, the right to perform). Only the powers conferred by the moral right, such as the right to prohibit the distortion of the work, are non-transferable. Like Austrian law, the draft refrains from such a different regulation of the transferability of individual copyright powers. In future, copyright should neither be transferable in whole nor in part. Rather, the author should only be able to grant someone else the right to use the work in a certain way. The copyright itself remains, burdened with the right of use, the author. This ensures that even if the author leaves the economic exploitation of his work to another person, he always retains a certain control over the further fate of his work.

Re: Ask HN: How can I work towards building a company while employed?

#40

Post by evgen »

Kaotique wrote: post #22
WestCoastJustin wrote: post #7

Do not do anything non-work related on company equipment! Ever, for any reason, seriously don't do it! Do not even research the idea! Assume the company is logging everything. They likely are. Honestly, I'd just focus on work and learn if you are just starting out. Learn as much as you can while employed by other folks (they are basically paying you to learn). Learn as much about the business your company is in too.…

I find that first advice a bit paranoid. What country are you from where it is normal that a company is logging and spying on its employers? I have a company laptop but there is no logging whatsoever. Outside office hours I use this laptop to do personal stuff all the time.

In many countries if you have a company laptop then everything on that laptop or done on that laptop belong to the company. They are unlikely to be spying on your directly, but they will often have administrative access, will perform backups to ensure continuity of business data you are working on etc. If you leave and start a competing company someone in IT is going to get a call asking them to check your archived data (email, etc.) to see if you were working on this new company while using old company equipment or during old company time. If they find evidence of this then in many jurisdictions you are going to be in trouble...

Save the headache and use your own equipment. At the very least have a personal VM that you run to do your personal work on.

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