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Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#31

Post by anthuman »

erentz wrote: post #28
adminu wrote: post #8

Assuming Hong Kong is indeed tightening its grip on the people and accepting more influence from Beijing, I wonder if that was a smart move. I mean, Hong Kong is a cash cow for China and an innovation driver. It foots on lots of trade and internationals coming in. Why would you fiddle with that and threaten making Hong Kong less desirable to foreigners?

> Why would you fiddle with that and threaten making Hong Kong less desirable to foreigners? Because China is not as naturally unified as it likes to make out and having an example of a previously free and democratic state that still wants to agitate for freedom within your borders is intolerable to an authoritarian regime that needs to maintain control everywhere.

Previously free? Hong Kong was a colony of britain which ruled with an iron fist and disallowed voting or democracy in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was never free nor democratic until it became part of China. Lots of brits love to pretend they brought democracy everywhere, but they didn't. Hong kong became a "democracy" and "free" after the brits got kicked out. The brits never let their colonies become democracies because britain was never really a democracy. Britain is a constitutional monarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy

Also, the fact that china is an authoritarian communist state shows that they aren't pretending to be "naturally unified". If they were "naturally unified", they wouldn't be so authoritarian in the first place.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#32

Post by _ptgt »

FabHK wrote: post #26
syntaxing wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the brain drain from HK to China is much more prevalent than people know these past five years. China have been doing various "assimilation" techniques since the Qin Dynasty. I feel like China has been pretty aggressive with their "wash generation" (direct translation). Bathe the citizens in decent wealth and comfort while increasing the immigration rate from Mainlad China. Look at the new train and bridge to…

> it's only a matter of a couple decades where HK today will cease to exist Well, at most three decades, to be precise, when in 2047 it will fully revert to China under the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and lose its status as a Special Administrative Region.

My understanding is that HK future after 2047 is left unclear under the Sino-British Joint Declaration. Not that it's specified to be annexed to the mainland.

Granted, in practice it's hard to see any other outcome from today's lens. But my observation is that there tends to be a lot of this fact-mangling when it comes to territories PRC likes to claim that suspiciously seems to nearly always coincide with the PRC's interests, and I would prefer public discourse at least has the legal facts straight now and when the time comes.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#33

Post by zhte415 »

syntaxing wrote: post #20
adminu wrote: post #8

Assuming Hong Kong is indeed tightening its grip on the people and accepting more influence from Beijing, I wonder if that was a smart move. I mean, Hong Kong is a cash cow for China and an innovation driver. It foots on lots of trade and internationals coming in. Why would you fiddle with that and threaten making Hong Kong less desirable to foreigners?

I think the brain drain from HK to China is much more prevalent than people know these past five years. China have been doing various "assimilation" techniques since the Qin Dynasty. I feel like China has been pretty aggressive with their "wash generation" (direct translation). Bathe the citizens in decent wealth and comfort while increasing the immigration rate from Mainlad China. Look at the new train and bridge to…

I hope your comment is satire.

If not, the wumaos are doing a good job on HN.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#34

Post by johannes1234321 »

pergadad wrote: post #24
mieseratte wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, preposterously, America has given political asylum to German home-schoolers a few years ago. Why preposterously?

Hard to understand why the wish to homeschool your child would fulfil any of the criteria of 'refugee', which primarily is about bring persecuted and having your life threatened. That is rather unlikely in Germany...

Taking kids out of schools for homeschooling (in a German context) is typically done for "religious" reasons, where parents claim their religion forbids specific content (sexual education, evolution etc.) so parents claim religious prosecution as reason.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#35

Post by mieseratte »

FabHK wrote: post #25
mieseratte wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, preposterously, America has given political asylum to German home-schoolers a few years ago. Why preposterously?

Because it is preposterous to consider the German "Schulpflicht" (ie, the obligation that children visit a public^W school) religious or political persecution. You can teach your children whatever weird shit you want. What you cannot do (in Germany) is take them out of school, where they will also be taught what everyone else is taught, including sex-ed, history, comparative religion, etc. EDIT: correction, it's not…

In America we seem to have the opposite view. The government doesn’t get to make that call.

I could see how one could reasonably view this as some sort of political or religious refugee, depending on context. They are, at the end of the day, facing punishment for a practice a typical American would find acceptable if not a little strange.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#36

Post by spacehunt »

anthuman wrote: post #31
erentz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would you fiddle with that and threaten making Hong Kong less desirable to foreigners? Because China is not as naturally unified as it likes to make out and having an example of a previously free and democratic state that still wants to agitate for freedom within your borders is intolerable to an authoritarian regime that needs to maintain control everywhere.

Previously free? Hong Kong was a colony of britain which ruled with an iron fist and disallowed voting or democracy in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was never free nor democratic until it became part of China. Lots of brits love to pretend they brought democracy everywhere, but they didn't. Hong kong became a "democracy" and "free" after the brits got kicked out. The brits never let their colonies become democracies because b…

There were Legislative Council and District/Urban/Regional Council Elections even before the Joint Declaration was signed. In fact, in the final years of British administration both the LegCo and the Urban/Regional Councils were elected by universal suffrage.

Also,

> ... documents recently released by the National Archives in Britain suggest that beginning in the 1950s, the colonial governors who ran Hong Kong repeatedly sought to introduce popular elections but abandoned those efforts in the face of pressure by Communist Party leaders in Beijing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#37

Post by 188201 »

adminu wrote: post #8

Assuming Hong Kong is indeed tightening its grip on the people and accepting more influence from Beijing, I wonder if that was a smart move. I mean, Hong Kong is a cash cow for China and an innovation driver. It foots on lots of trade and internationals coming in. Why would you fiddle with that and threaten making Hong Kong less desirable to foreigners?

China is always tried to tighten its grip, but in a slower pace. For the extradition law they are proposing, it is not a standard move but very controversial among Hong Kong and even internationally. The main reason for China to do that is because China don't have enough dollar reserve.

In trade war between China and US, many food production in China relied on foreign trade. Increasing tax would cause China losing their reserve in higher rate. It is not just about Huawei, but many industry losing jobs, not enough food production for the people. The same or similar may apply to US but the difference is that China is authoritarian. If an authoritarian cannot maintain its economic growth, the government would be collapsed by revolution or a coup. They could even potentially start a war for cover up their fault by blaming foreign countries. For US, it's just a matter of losing an election.

Now what is the solution? There are still many reserve in Hong Kong. Let's start a extradition law in Hong Kong to China to take back some of the dollar from "outlawed" Hong Kong merchant. For the sake of China, Hong Kong could be a pawn for sacrifice.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#38

Post by anthuman »

spacehunt wrote: post #36
anthuman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previously free? Hong Kong was a colony of britain which ruled with an iron fist and disallowed voting or democracy in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was never free nor democratic until it became part of China. Lots of brits love to pretend they brought democracy everywhere, but they didn't. Hong kong became a "democracy" and "free" after the brits got kicked out. The brits never let their colonies become democracies because b…

There were Legislative Council and District/Urban/Regional Council Elections even before the Joint Declaration was signed. In fact, in the final years of British administration both the LegCo and the Urban/Regional Councils were elected by universal suffrage. Also, > ... documents recently released by the National Archives in Britain suggest that beginning in the 1950s, the colonial governors who ran Hong Kong repeat…

Wasn't the "legislative" council filled with appointees and served as an advisory role to the british governor ruling over hong kong? Where is the democracy there. Also china played around with "local" elections, doesn't mean they were/are a democracy.

As for your last point, so what? Nobody is claiming china is a democracy. But neither was britain. And it's laughable that "chinese pressure" is why britain didn't allow democracy in hong kong. It's a convenient excuse that doesn't change the facts.

Britain never allowed democracy in hong kong. And it's simply absurd to claim hong kong was "free" when it was a conquered colony of britain. It's one of the ironies of history. Hong kong only became "free" and "democratic" under chinese rule.

And in the final years, the "LegCo and the Urban/Regional Councils" may have been elected but they were powerless advisors. The ruler of hong kong, the governor, who had actual power was not elected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Patten

Does that guy look like an "elected" and "rightful" leader of hong kong? A guy who wasn't born in hong kong and who didn't grow up in hong kong ruled hong kong by appointment, not election. It's absurd that anyone would claim hong kong was free or democratic at any point under british rule. Britain itself wasn't a democracy and it never allowed any of it's colonies, especially the non-white colonies, to become a democracy.

The truth of the matter is hong kong was never a democracy and probably will never be one. Neither the colonizing brits or the chinese were interested in hong kong being a democracy.

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#39

Post by Tomte »

mieseratte wrote: post #35
FabHK wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is preposterous to consider the German "Schulpflicht" (ie, the obligation that children visit a public^W school) religious or political persecution. You can teach your children whatever weird shit you want. What you cannot do (in Germany) is take them out of school, where they will also be taught what everyone else is taught, including sex-ed, history, comparative religion, etc. EDIT: correction, it's not…

In America we seem to have the opposite view. The government doesn’t get to make that call. I could see how one could reasonably view this as some sort of political or religious refugee, depending on context. They are, at the end of the day, facing punishment for a practice a typical American would find acceptable if not a little strange.

At that point you have expanded the meaning of "persecution" to nonsense.

Sure, we could accept Americans as "politically persecuted", because highways in America have speed limits. But we choose not to.

At some point you need to accept that not every difference in laws is persecution. That not every difference in law means that the other one is doing something wrong.

Alas, the US Supreme Court feels similarly when its conservative wing always dismisses all analogies and examples abroad as obviously uninteresting. I think "our SCOTUS" gets this balance right, or at least more right, when it differentiates between "would not constitutional in Germany, but is a valid viewpoint" and "would not be constitutional, and is so far beyond the pale that there cannot be an accomodation".

An extradition case starring an American from some years ago is a prime example for this differentiation, in my opinion (anyone interested in reading a summary?).

Re: Hong Kong activists wanted by police gain protection in Germany

#40

Post by duxup »

Tomte wrote: post #3
Iv wrote: post #2

“If the German government thinks that the Hong Kong judiciary is independent, they would not grant me refugee status,” I just want to point out that refugee status is given on a case by case basis. Even with an independent judiciary, if your laws oppress some people, refugee status can be obtained. Europe has accepted refugees from USA during McCarty's era. Accepting a refugee from another nation does have diplomatic…

And, preposterously, America has given political asylum to German home-schoolers a few years ago.

Is that bad?

Someone wants to educate their children at home, in Germany that's not ok. In the US it is, so in the US they get some level of asylum.

These folks aren't some terrorists, they're not hurting anyone... seems like a situation where there are two different approaches, not some serious crime.

It also is a case by case basis so who knows if it holds up in court for long.

Edit: Looks like they lost the asylum part of their bid:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/home-schooling-german-family-allow...

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