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The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

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Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#31

Post by beat »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #25
davesque wrote: post #11

A bit off-topic, but I've kind of struggled mentally since finishing The Dark Forest . Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. I'd like to believe it's not true, but so long as any two civilizations are likely to have dramatically different rates o…

>> Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. This is a great conceit for a sci-fi novel (two, actually) but I wouldn't take it too seriously as a real-life argument. To begin with, it's a theory about essentially evolutionary imperatives. It says tha…

Not everyone reaches the conclusions of the Dark Forest.

But those who don't reach it are exterminated.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#32

Post by ethbro »

beat wrote: post #4

As much as I love Cixin Liu's "Dark Forest" concept (I've sung my praises of his novels quite a bit here), I'm not sure this post fully fleshes out the analogy. I think it could be developed further, though. What makes Cixin's dark forest so awful is that new intelligent species are going out into a Universe with other species millions of years more advanced than they are, species that can easily exterminate entire s…

grinds teeth

A vein almost explodes in my forehead everytime someone points to Cixin Liu as the originator of DFT.

The idea's been around since the early to mid-80s, and people could at least do diligence to properly cite.

It's almost as insulting as if I said "When George Lucas started science fiction films with Star Wars..."

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#33

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

davesque wrote: post #11

A bit off-topic, but I've kind of struggled mentally since finishing The Dark Forest . Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. I'd like to believe it's not true, but so long as any two civilizations are likely to have dramatically different rates o…

Regarding how long it takes to travel between habitable systems- Cixin Liu, like most other hard sci-fi authors, and everybody else who thinks about those things, seems to assume that lightspeed is just as problematic for everyone else as it is for us humans.

And yet we have no way to know that for sure. We have no idea what the average lifespan of an intelligent species is. It may just be that humans are particularly short-lived, among all the species in the galaxy, or the entire universe. If a species has a lifetime of a couple thousand years then interstellar travel, even at sub-light speeds, would be a lot more manageable than it is for us.

Which to me, means we can relax a little about the risk of being destroyed by hostile aliens. We don't know what we don't know. Chances are, if they were going to destroy us, they would have already done so in the last million years or so. We're probably a lot less appealing, as a world, than we think we are. Perhaps the universe really hates salt water or oxygen atmospheres? Who's to say?

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#34

Post by beat »

sylens wrote: post #20

Wouldn't the "Black Domain" concept introduced in Death's End be a better metaphor here? Communities are choosing to seal themselves off from the greater Internet, even if that means they cannot collaborate/engage with as many other people.

Only if you actively hide the community from the rest of the internet, rather than passively hide (by not advertising its existence).

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#35

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

beat wrote: post #31
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. This is a great conceit for a sci-fi novel (two, actually) but I wouldn't take it too seriously as a real-life argument. To begin with, it's a theory about essentially evolutionary imperatives. It says tha…

Not everyone reaches the conclusions of the Dark Forest. But those who don't reach it are exterminated.

In the books, or in the real world? In the real world there are many competing theories about why the universe is silent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#36

Post by ethbro »

beat wrote: post #31
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. This is a great conceit for a sci-fi novel (two, actually) but I wouldn't take it too seriously as a real-life argument. To begin with, it's a theory about essentially evolutionary imperatives. It says tha…

Not everyone reaches the conclusions of the Dark Forest. But those who don't reach it are exterminated.

No.

There are about 100 other parameters whose relative balance determine game theoretical solutions to the problem. And as with many things, Cixin Liu handwaves away all that complexity in service of narrative.

Don't confuse fiction with reality.

Look at the Drake Equation as a much simpler example. Even given its simplicity, small tweaks in assumptions produce wildly different projections.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#37

Post by F_r_k »

ethbro wrote: post #32
beat wrote: post #4

As much as I love Cixin Liu's "Dark Forest" concept (I've sung my praises of his novels quite a bit here), I'm not sure this post fully fleshes out the analogy. I think it could be developed further, though. What makes Cixin's dark forest so awful is that new intelligent species are going out into a Universe with other species millions of years more advanced than they are, species that can easily exterminate entire s…

grinds teeth A vein almost explodes in my forehead everytime someone points to Cixin Liu as the originator of DFT. The idea's been around since the early to mid-80s, and people could at least do diligence to properly cite. It's almost as insulting as if I said "When George Lucas started science fiction films with Star Wars..."

Could you cite some books that covered DFT ? I'm eager to read them

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#38

Post by sandworm101 »

ethbro wrote: post #32
beat wrote: post #4

As much as I love Cixin Liu's "Dark Forest" concept (I've sung my praises of his novels quite a bit here), I'm not sure this post fully fleshes out the analogy. I think it could be developed further, though. What makes Cixin's dark forest so awful is that new intelligent species are going out into a Universe with other species millions of years more advanced than they are, species that can easily exterminate entire s…

grinds teeth A vein almost explodes in my forehead everytime someone points to Cixin Liu as the originator of DFT. The idea's been around since the early to mid-80s, and people could at least do diligence to properly cite. It's almost as insulting as if I said "When George Lucas started science fiction films with Star Wars..."

Star wars isn't science fiction. Lucas tells us so in the first frame: a long time ago in a galaxy far far away: it isnt about us or where science may take us in the future. It is a samurai movie with lasers.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#39

Post by dmitrygr »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #33
davesque wrote: post #11

A bit off-topic, but I've kind of struggled mentally since finishing The Dark Forest . Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. I'd like to believe it's not true, but so long as any two civilizations are likely to have dramatically different rates o…

Regarding how long it takes to travel between habitable systems- Cixin Liu, like most other hard sci-fi authors, and everybody else who thinks about those things, seems to assume that lightspeed is just as problematic for everyone else as it is for us humans. And yet we have no way to know that for sure. We have no idea what the average lifespan of an intelligent species is. It may just be that humans are particularl…

Not really, since DFT covers how fast information travels, not biological bodies. Lifespans aren't really part of the equation.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#40

Post by DesiLurker »

yuy910616 wrote: post #3

Is this a meme? '''Calls out the internet for becoming a 'dark forest' bc of indexed, optimized, and gamified nature...posts on Medium'''

I've posted criticisms of FB on FB. What else are you gonna do when there really is no choice. this kind of criticisms really are ad-homenian attacks with little to contribute.
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