When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition • Hacker News Board

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#31

Post by LyndsySimon » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

maxheadroom wrote: post #17

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? (Story time.) I went to a presentation one time at work about mental health. (It was part of the government's mental health awareness campaign[0].) In this presentation, the presenter mentioned bathing/lack of changing clothes as a marker for possible mental health issues. As…

Fair enough.

I'd modify that statement to read "behaviors that differ from _their_ norm". If someone suddenly changes their behavior without apparent cause, I'd consider that to be an indicator of something being amiss.

Of course I'm not a doctor, much less a psychiatrist.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#32

Post by coldtea » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #16

Nasrudith wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the converse - what is accepted as "normal" or even praised as a virtue is harmful and destructive. To give real examples smoking was normal, as was pedestray and ironically the Roman gladiatoral combat which is considered peak decadence was intended to combat decadence! Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

I don't see how Roman gladiatorial combat is so different from modern sports. The only major difference is the fact that nearly all gladiators were slaves, but otherwise I see no difference between gladiators and UFC fighting tournaments (or for that matter, American football). I just don't see the peak decadence point.

>I don't see how Roman gladiatorial combat is so different from modern sports. The only major difference is the fact that nearly all gladiators were slaves

How about modern sports aren't "to death"?

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#33

Post by coldtea » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #23

Nasrudith wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the converse - what is accepted as "normal" or even praised as a virtue is harmful and destructive. To give real examples smoking was normal, as was pedestray and ironically the Roman gladiatoral combat which is considered peak decadence was intended to combat decadence! Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

They were society in which violence had completely different meaning. Just like slave holding was something normal in other societies. ISIS was stoning and beheading people just few months ago. These are differences in moral values that have nothing to do with mental health.

>Just like slave holding was something normal in other societies.

Well, until the 1860s in the US too. And until the '70s, open segregation.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#34

Post by CobrastanJorji » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

Ultimately, that's most every field aimed at helping people, though. In order to make things better, you need to define which direction "better" is. This comes with a mess of thorny problems. Medicine gets it easiest, but even the seemingly objective goal of "healthy" comes with terribly hard ethical questions.

Psychology has it much worse. What the heck is "better?" Is being a jerk a psychological disorder? Psychologists have a lot of trouble defining diagnoses, and then they have trouble deciding if any one person matches it.

This happens with government, education, public works projects, you nave it. If your goal is to improve things, it comes with an opinion on what an improvement is.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#35

Post by coldtea » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #5

whatshisface wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. There are a few mental disorders like that, but it's important to bear in mind that most of them (major depression, mid to low functioning autism, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so on) lead to objectively reduced functioning independent of society and a lot of suffering in whoever has them. It's not something to be roma…

Would you happen to know if there is some classification difference between a mental disorder that may involve some kind of chemical imbalance and a personality disorder which would be more like having a personality that makes daily life difficult? I feel like they get lumped together, but maybe I'm just ignorant about how these terms are used.

There's no "chemical imbalance" per se. People can and do have "serious mental issue" with no specific chemical markers to tell...

It's mostly a marketing slogan for drugs, and a gross over-simplification.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#36

Post by coldtea » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

50656E6973 wrote: post #21

johnchristopher wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. The line is drawn once it becomes dangerous for people around the person, or the person itself, or when the person is suffering from that condition (and not just "society misunderstanding him"). For instance, I have been the focus/target of a schizophrenic person whose condition was abruptly worsening at the time. He became a danger to me and my signif…

Nothing you described was indicative of that person having a "mental illness" so much as exhibiting anti-social behavior.

At the extremes, the two are not really different categories of things. It's not like a sociopath is just an emo teen...

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#37

Post by johnchristopher » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

50656E6973 wrote: post #21

johnchristopher wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. The line is drawn once it becomes dangerous for people around the person, or the person itself, or when the person is suffering from that condition (and not just "society misunderstanding him"). For instance, I have been the focus/target of a schizophrenic person whose condition was abruptly worsening at the time. He became a danger to me and my signif…

Nothing you described was indicative of that person having a "mental illness" so much as exhibiting anti-social behavior.

> Nothing you described was indicative of that person having a "mental illness" so much as exhibiting anti-social behavior.

I know this is the internet and for all you know I could be a dog but this is HN and I assume that if I say that person suffered from schizophrenia you know I am not saying that lightly.

Now what more do you want ? A transcript of the conversation between his mother and the department director where she explained his meds were off and they had been waiting for their psychiatrist to adjust the dosage - if that was possible, because she was contemplating to temporary force him to get into a psychiatric hospital ? A YouTube video of how he told me the friction between us was from the bad energy coming from electrical outlets and that the Koreans had taken advantage of him while he was sleeping to replace his heart with a nuclear missile so that we would fight but now it's okay because we are on the same side ? A testimony of another party about the damage he did to a wall with his fist while holding him close to his other fist and screaming "your pal was this close to get it" ? An audio copy of the message I left on my SO voicemail telling her that during the interview at a police station for an IT position they asked me what those fraud computer charges were about (yeah, nice way to find out...) ? A screenshot of the newspaper I was reading on my laptop at that time, it had a picture of something that reminded him of his sister or her wedding and he concluded I had hacked his computer or his sister's computer to get those photos ?

A written note from his doctor ? A wikipedia entry to cancel card ? Bordel.

Now, don't get me wrong. Schizophrenia doesn't define these people. They are human beings, I value them as much as the next one. But with a bad diagnostic and treatment or during a crisis ? They can get hard to relate with.

On a personal note: it's a bit worse for me since I tend to consider myself a good listener and too much empathic for my own good. It doesn't mix well with people in that state. But you'll get no data points for that.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#38

Post by penagwin » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

maxheadroom wrote: post #17

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? (Story time.) I went to a presentation one time at work about mental health. (It was part of the government's mental health awareness campaign[0].) In this presentation, the presenter mentioned bathing/lack of changing clothes as a marker for possible mental health issues. As…

I think the real qualifier is if lack of self-care is due to personal choice then environmental resources.

You don't have clean water to regularly wash clothes/yourself? That's not a personal choice (in this instance).

If you DO have clean water and aren't taking care of your basic hygene, then there's an issue. If asked "why" and the answer is "no point" then that's a pretty clear sign of depression. "I don't know how to use my washer" would likely be an indicator of anxiety (because a "mentally fit" person should be able to figure it out, or seek help with figuring it out), etc.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#39

Post by xkcd-sucks » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #15

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

>Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Yes. Exactly this. >My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. When the person with the norm-non-following behavior is unable integrate with wider society. I was lucky enough to study psychology under someone with a streak of playful contempt for the unwan…

>I was lucky enough to study psychology under someone with a streak of playful contempt for the unwanted self-seriousness that the field has.

I studied psych with someone that had this posted on his office door, headlined "Advances in Psychosurgery" :)

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/25/us/brain-wound-eliminates...

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#40

Post by asveikau » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

maxheadroom wrote: post #17

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? (Story time.) I went to a presentation one time at work about mental health. (It was part of the government's mental health awareness campaign[0].) In this presentation, the presenter mentioned bathing/lack of changing clothes as a marker for possible mental health issues. As…

What you should watch for is not the habits themselves, but sudden changes in such habits. Some conditions like bipolar, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, etc. can be episodic, and see abrupt changes in things like hygiene during these transitions.